Now, Mrs. Cole, where were you born? I was born in Heartland, New Brunswick, Canada. And will you tell me again what Heartland is noted for? Heartland has the longest covered bridge in the world. And you were saying that it wasn't always covered? No, it was.

And it was just, I don't know how many years ago it was covered, but when I was a girl it was not. And where did you go from New Brunswick? To Lowell. Your parents moved to Lowell. Do you remember about what year that was? Approximately? 1920, perhaps. I'm not positive. Why did they decide to come to Lowell? My father thought he could get a better job. What was his trade? Well, my father was in the lumber business. And he had the misfortune to lose his money and had to do other things. And job opportunities were better in Lowell. In those days, Lowell was a very good place to go to get a job of any sort. So you know of a lot of other people that came from far away just to go to Lowell to get a job? Oh yes. Girls used to come from New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to train in what was the Corporation Hospital. It's now St. Joseph's Hospital. Also they used to train in Tewksbury, which was a training school for RNs. You could get a job of any sort in Lowell.

So did your father get a job? He got a job of some sort, I don't recall exactly what. Where did you live in Lowell? In the Highlands. Did you always live in the same place? No, we lived in the Highlands, but not always in the same place.

We had an apartment. Now did you start school in Lowell? No, I was... I've had my education all over the place. You don't want me to go into that, do you? Sure, please. I went to elementary school in Vancouver. See, Vancouver is a great lumber center. That was where my father's business was.

When he lost the business, we came back this way. Because we had relatives both in New Brunswick and in Massachusetts, in Lowell. Oh, I see.

And I was through grammar school then. Then my father tried to re-establish himself in the West again, and my mother and I went to live with my grandfather. And we were there two years, so I had the first two years of high school in New Brunswick. And when we came here, I finished high school. At Lowell High School? At Lowell High School. And I went to Teachers College.

It wasn't called it back then. It was called Lowell Normal School. Do you know the origin of the term normal? No, I always thought it was a strange name for a teacher's training school. How do the school systems of New Brunswick compare with the school systems that you encountered in Lowell? Well, I don't think they were as progressive in New Brunswick then. I don't know anything about it now. Well, I didn't either.

Yes, then they were not. And I had some difficulty in being admitted as a junior, because they thought I was short on some courses. But I was admitted and graduated alright. Then I went to Lowell Normal School, and I got my degree since. When I got my degree, it was called Teachers College. It's changed its name now.

It's now Lowell State College. What was a college day like at Lowell State? You lived at home, obviously. Yes.

Well, you mean when it was Lowell Normal School? Right, when you were going to... Well, it was very different than what it is today. For one thing, we had compulsory chapel service. You had no choice but to go.

And if you were late, you had to have somebody go to bat for you. Some other student... The students took the attendance, and if you were in good standing with the student who took the attendance, why she'd overlook the fact that you were late, about whether you weren't there at all, I don't know. I don't remember missing it.

They were very strict with us. I was very discouraged. I would have dropped out if it hadn't been for my mother.

Her belief in my ability. They were very hard on us. When we first went, they told us the reason we were going there was because our parents couldn't afford to send us to a more expensive place.

Some of us were lazy and didn't want to go to work. And some were there and would teach four years and get married. That was the average.

And some were there because they wanted to be there. But they were not in the majority. It didn't cheer you up any to be talked to like that.

And I remember... I went to see my mother. She was in the hospital with an operation. And she looked at me and said, What's the matter with you? And I said, Nothing. She said, Oh, yes, there is. There's plenty wrong. I can tell by your face. So I burst into tears and told mother that I just couldn't take such horrible talk. I was so discouraged. And my mother said that I had no ability.

I'd never make a teacher. I'd never get a job if I did graduate. My mother said, Yes, you will. I have every bit of confidence in you. I'm sure you will. So I went back, but it was my mother's encouragement that helped me.

And frankly, I detested it. All the way through? A great deal of the way through. And then my father died.

And I had to work for my room and board in a private family. My education came to me the hard way. But I valued it because of that.

See, we didn't have very much tuition. We had to buy our own books. But if you haven't got any money, a small amount is a lot.

And so I worked for my room and board. I was a house companion to one lady. Taking care of children, doing housework.

And when you have those kind of jobs, the job starts in small and it gets bigger, the same way a snowball gets larger as it rolls. So I worked really very hard. In the summer, I went to New Hampshire and worked as a waitress in the Hotel Wombeck.

Three summers. And one summer, I get kind of mixed up thinking back. One summer, I went to Fishers Island, New York.

But I graduated without being in debt, which is more than a lot of kids can say now. What year did you graduate? 1928. 1928.

And did you get a job right away? 1929. I'm sorry. I made a mistake. You see, I was sent out as a cadet teacher so that I didn't graduate with my class. In the year 1928, in April, I was sent out to Shirley, Mass. as a cadet to teach. What did you do? Well, a cadet teaches under the supervision of an instructor. The instructor came out every so often and told us what was right and what w

as wrong that we were doing. And then I went back the following April and graduated. That was the tail end of a course from World War I. Because they had a hard time keeping girls in school then, and they did that to encourage them. Let them go out, earn some money, and then come back and finish. But ours was the last class.

But I got a job in Shirley. I think that there were 150 that graduated and no more than six or eight got jobs because jobs were as scarce then as they are now. And I was very fortunate. Was that because of the Depression and the stock market crash? Some of it was, yes. I presume that was the reason for it. How many years did you teach? I taught four years there. Then I got married. So that was the average thing I told you about. And after you were married, you stopped teaching? Yes.

Oh, you had to. Oh, my gracious. The name Mrs. was prohibited. I wonder why. Well, for many years there was a rule that you had to give up your job when you got married. I know the teaching profession was for teachers.

That isn't my quote. That's a quote of one of our professors in school. And he said that because other professions would allow women to work when they were married, but teachers were not allowed to.

About 1946 or 47, they were very short of teachers. It didn't make any difference to them if you had Mrs. on your name or not. So after you were married, did you live alone again? I lived alone for maybe six or seven years.

Then we lived in Bell. Then we moved to Bell, Redcliffe. What did your husband do for a job? He was in the Civil Service.

He had been in the war? No, not in World War I. No, he was too young for that. I see. What kind of job did he do in Civil Service? He worked at Port Evans some of the time. And then in 1943, I think it was, that he went in the Merchant Marine. He was a commissioned officer. And that was after you had moved to Chelmsford? Yes. Are you glad you moved here? Oh, yes. You like Chelmsford? Yes, I do. We moved here for one reason.

Taxes were lower and then this was a new house. We didn't like where we had lived in Billerica. I don't know anything about Billerica schools, but my son was about ready to start school. And it was nice to have a neighborhood school. Where was the closest school? East Chelmsford School, up here. There were eight grades.

Now they have one fifth grade or one sixth grade. I don't know which. But there were eight grades there.

I taught in that school for four years, six years rather. That's after you married? Yes. And this section that we're in now is East Chelmsford? East, yes.

I only remember it when I make out the text. Are there any distinctions made between East and North? Oh, yes, indeed. North is industrial, Central and Westwood are residential. I don't know about West Chelmsford. But East Chelmsford has been forgotten. And this is more rural, perhaps.

It's less rural than it was when we moved here. Did you get involved much in activities going on in the town, such as politics or something? Or did you stay away from that? I'm not socially ambitious, I'm afraid. Do you feel more closely tied to Lowell here than to Chelmsford? Yes, I do.

In some ways. Well, you see, my church is in Lowell. And a good many of my friends are in Lowell.

But I don't want to live in Lowell. I enjoy the fact that I have an acre of land which I can move around in. And I don't like living in the city.

You know, it is where I was living here. And it's close enough, actually. Yes, mm-hmm. It's about three-eighths of a mile from here to the bus. I had someone measure it. I don't mind that walk.

I like it. What kinds of things did you do for recreation when you were younger, when you first came to Lowell? What were the biggest things that people did? I don't... I've always been a great reader, I suppose. That was my recreation.

And I've always enjoyed studying, although you shouldn't call that recreation, should you? Well, I've always liked gardening. I've lived a very... not restricted, exactly, a very... For many years, I lived a very narrow life, I think. I've traveled a good deal. Since I... since World War II. Oh, really? Yes, I've been to Europe five times. Really? To South America, Alaska.

These are all pleasure trips? Yes. No, I never took them for college degree. You know, sometimes you can.

But I never did. I hoped to go to Rome in April. Oh, wow. You do get around. I love traveling. I like gardening.

I like houseplants. I enjoy reading. I like doing handwork.

I do quite a lot of embroidery. This is... That's pretty interesting. I'm afraid I'm really not much use for your history of Chelmsford, though.

I really can't see that any of this is of any value. But I'm glad I live in Chelmsford, and I think it has a very good school system. Do you think the town has changed much since you moved here? Yes, I think it's... Well, it's a great deal bigger. And I think it's changed. I can't exactly say how. Except these are changing times. Yeah. Did you ever get involved in any winter sports? Say, sledding or coasting or anything? Oh, I did as a youngster. Always did that in Canada.

But I've never... I was a little bit old to go doing that, I thought. Probably I wasn't, but I thought I was anyway. Would you like to go back to Canada to live? No, no. No, I'm an American. My family, my son was born here. My husband was an American. I go back and visit. I have cousins in New Brunswick, that island where I told you. But I visit every summer almost, and I have one in Vancouver that I occasionally go out and see. I've been up there four times. I fly. One time we went by freighter as far as San Francisco and then took a bus.

Freighter travel's very interesting. In what sense? Well, it's very relaxing. There are no social demands made on you.

You wear what you like and do what you like and amuse yourself. The food is good. I've been on several freighter trips.

That sounds interesting. It is. It's very relaxing.

I used to do that on summer vacation. When you finish a year at school, you're quite tired. And that's very relaxing after a hard year at school.

Did you get involved at all in the 300th anniversary of the town, that big celebration? No, I didn't. I didn't even see it. I think possibly I was away.

Oh, really? Yeah, it was in the summer, I think, or early spring. Do you know anything about the industry of North Chelmsford? Very much about it? Well, there used to be two wool mills there. One was a wool scouring place.

I'm not sure. The other was the Ames Worcester or not. But there used to be... The industry in North Chelmsford, I believe, was wool mills.

They've been gone quite a while, I imagine. I think there are a couple there now, but it's not a big thing. I don't even know if they're being used.

No, I don't know either whether they have diversified industry there or whether the place is closed. I don't know. Do you travel into Lowell much? I go in every week. Just going to shop? No, I shop in Chelmsford. Oh, do you? I go and have my hair done in Lowell and visit friends. No, the bus for the Committee on Aging picks me up and takes me to the supermarket and to the library.

So that's a handy service? Oh, very. I appreciate it immensely. Do you have to call them or do they go by? I call them, yes, to make an appointment.

Does it cost? No, it doesn't cost anything. I've never had this before in my life. I'm very grateful for it, believe me, because I ordered my groceries over the telephone and when you order over the telephone you forget some things.

You know, you walk along by shelves and think that might be good and you pick it up. And of course ordering by telephone is more expensive because they automatically give you their most expensive brands and when I've had my groceries delivered they're not doing that for nothing. Your things cost more.

So that was very nice. I appreciate it very much. It really is. And I appreciate going to the library. Before they had that bus they used to bring books to me but it's nice to go over there and look. That's one dream I've always wished I had was a house near the library and near a supermarket but I haven't.

This is next best. No, they don't do anything like that No. Of course they couldn't, I don't suppose.

So many of them, yes. Do you know very much about the Lacoine radio station? No, I don't know a thing about it. I was just wondering if I... Is that the... That's the thing with Clifford. Yeah, Clifford. Isn't that written up on a big poster in the library? Could be, yes. I've read that but I never had heard of it before.

I don't have a real relationship to him and I don't feel I'm doing a thing for him. But I shall try again next week and ask to stay over longer. Yeah.

They give me an hour and if you're really browsing it takes quite a while to find things. That's true. Do you belong to any associations in Chelmsford Historical Society or something like that? No, I don't.

I don't like transportation. I would love to belong to a historical society or a garden club but those two things I don't know if they take you to that or not. Gee, I don't know. But I would enjoy the historical society and garden club very much because I really love gardening. I'm perhaps not a successful gardener but I'm an enthusiastic one. That's what matters.

Well, I can't think of anything else to ask about Chelmsford unless there's something you want to add. You know, yes, I'd like to say that I'm sorry that they're going to close the East School. Oh, they are closing it? They're going to in another year.

That was a very nice school and I taught there six years and then went into Lowell to teach because Lowell paid a better salary. Now Chelmsford pays a better salary. But teaching in the East Chelmsford school was almost like teaching in a private school. There weren't so many children. You had two grades in a room but that's very advantageous sometimes because it's nice to have children help each other. And we didn't have large classes. I'm sure I never had more than 25 in two grades. You mean like a 4th and a 5th grade together? I had 1st and 2nd. I taught that four years and then I taught 3rd and 4th. Oh yes, 1st grade is the most difficult grade to teach. I taught that a good many years. But later on in the year when the children get broken into school little children can help one another and they do it quite efficiently too.

Excuse me. We used to do such nice things up there that you can't do in a great big school. We put on Dickens Christmas Carol and we had a real dinner because I cooked the turkeys. I remember that. There isn't as much regimentation in a little school and it was very nice. I enjoyed it very much.

And there are a nice class of children in Denise Chelmsford. And everyone was within walking distance which is rather a nice thing. It's a real neighborhood school then. Yes. And I think, I know they're doing away with them but I think the social life around a neighborhood school is very nice. I enjoyed my time there very much. I also taught half a year in North Chelmsford in what was the old Princeton Street School which is torn down now. And I didn't care for that nearly as much. I had only one grade there, third grade.

Was that a much bigger school? Oh yes, that was a large school. I doubt if we had over a hundred children in that school. In East Chelmsford? In East Chelmsford, yes. And we had a very nice principal, Mrs. Brown. And now North Chelmsford was a bigger school? Bigger school. And was that school serviced all of North Chelmsford? No. There was the Highland Avenue School which is still being used. And then there, see, there was one in West Chelmsford, which I think is still being used. I don't know if that's going to be closed or not.

I don't recall that. Maybe it was going to be closed. But a small school is really nice. Did you ever notice any feelings, any negative feelings held by North Chelmsford people towards Central people or South Chelmsford people? Oh yes. No, no, no, no. I have negative feelings towards East Chelmsford.

Oh, towards East, really? Yes, it used to be, I remember boys that were older than my son saying that, in order to get respect and be left alone, we had to have one fist fight over at the high school. I remember someone saying to me, where do you live? And I said East. She said, oh.

Well, I felt as though I'd been relegated to slums. I don't consider it that way. Do you know what the attitude is based on? Any idea? No, I don't, unless it was a farming community. I don't know. There used to be a great many Portuguese that lived out here. They used to call it the Portuguese village, I quote.

Oh really, East Chelmsford? Yes. There aren't very many, but Portuguese people are very nice. They're very industrious people, friendly.

Now I don't know why, maybe we imagine it, but as far as I can recall, there's always been a little feeling against East Chelmsford. Now I don't know anything about the other parts of Chelmsford. And almost anyone who's lived here has been.

I mean, any length of time. Yeah, I've heard it referred to, but no one seems to... This is strictly a bedroom community. You know, there's no industry, unless you want to call it a used car place down on Gorm Street, an industry.

How far does East Chelmsford go? Just as far as Gorm Street? Gorm Street, that way, and to the Billerica Line, which is just about a mile from Gorm Street. So East Chelmsford is quite spread out. Oh yes, it's like all of Chelmsford, but of course, when we moved here, there weren't as many houses on the street.

Five houses have been built on this street since I moved here. There isn't room for any more, unless they extend more street out into the woods. It would eventually end up by St. Joseph's Cemetery, if they did.

Oh, right. That's right. Well, I think I have all the information I need on East Chelmsford. Thank you.