Interviewer - Alright, today is January 29th, 2010. So, I'm here with Mary St. Hilaire and her sister Judy Olsen at 212 Dalton Road.

When did you first come to town, or did you grew up here, living on the street here?

Interviewer - We grew up, we moved out in 1940. So Judy's a townie, I'm not, because I was 18 months old when I moved across the street.

I grew up across the street on Fern Street. Judy was born in 43, so she was considered a townie. So, we went to Wesley School.

That time, three generations of my family went to Wesley School. My children went there, and so did my grandchildren. But then, they graduated in 1946.

And my husband and I both went to Wesley School, and our kids went to Wesley School. Wesley was the only two. I notice this is Fern Street, right next to your house.

Fern Street. So your house is over on the other side of Fern. Right over there.

Oh, down the street this corner. No, just right across the street here. Where we grew up, it's right over there.

What was it like on the street? Was there less development? Was there a lot of open fields?

I graduated in 1956. And the population probably was under 10,000. The town four times itself in the 60s.

Yeah, I graduated, and I had the biggest friends right across the country. You know where the town hall is today? That's where I went to high school.

You went different, right? You went to town hall. I went two years to the old high school, and then two years to McCarthy.

McCarthy opened in 1960 as a high school. And I graduated in 62 from McCarthy, which is now McCarthy. Which was our maid name, and I always told my kids it was named after me.

So you were actually McCarthy's? Yes, I made a name with McCarthy. No relation between you two?

No, but I used to tell my kids that. But we had it in school. Yeah, we know it.

But no, I went four years to Berker Road High School. In fact, when we went over there in 81, I got the principal's office, so that was kind of neat. I was the town clerk.

So we had the open house, and Mr. Conrad was there. He said, come on in. We never thought he'd be on this side of the desk.

It was the old principal's office. We became the town clerk's office. It was neat growing up in the 50s in town.

You know, we didn't take a school bus to a high school. You walked? We walked to the Western School.

She went, by then, you probably went to McFarland or something. Well, I went to first since six years here. But when we were at the Western School, we'd walk home for lunch.

They didn't have a hot lunch program, but we'd come home for lunch. You came home? Yeah, you came home for lunch.

I think some, because I think Western School, some from South came to Western, so this certainly had to be possible. We didn't. We didn't take a school bus to a foreign high school.

Those are days. I mean, you play at the playground all day, but you didn't come home with kids. Interesting.

They had Little League, but they had very little organized sports. They did have Little League. I remember that.

There was a Little League, I think the first Little League fellows over off Steadman Street there, beside the dump. The A-Arts. Yep.

And Mr. A-Art donated some land there, and there was like a Little League, the first one. And that's the first uniform. But most of the time.

See, there's the difference in the five years. They didn't have it here in my day. You didn't have anything, right?

There was a huge difference in the five years. You know, a lot of things. The way the district, school districts were.

Philosophy, yep. And we all, everybody in this area hung out at Winchester's Hill. Summer and winter.

It's at the end of the street. It's all pretty much grown in now. But it's still called Winchester's Hill.

But in the wintertime, that ski is like a little thing down there.

And in the summertime, it would be on the other side. It would be like a baseball. We could play baseball and stuff like that.

So in our day, you'd go out after supper, and you'd pick up at the Western School, or back here, you'd pick up like games. Baseball, basketball, whatever it was. And it was like two people with captains, and just like the old, like the Waltons.

And then you'd get picked, you know. Like Mary would get picked first. I would always get picked last, because I wasn't very good.

She was real good. And then you'd stay out until dark, right?

Until dark. And no one even worried about you. Yes, yes.

And no one ever worried. We walked everywhere. I mean, this, like over here on Chancellor Street, we'll probably not.

All houses. Everything's houses. Yeah, there used to be a race track down there.

Down on the other hand. Beyond the railroad tracks, there's a race track. Trotter Horses, you image, before I came, used to have a race track, which is now 495.

It goes through the middle of it. Yeah, no, in fact, I bought this house in 73 in June. By the time we passed papers, moved in, we did some renovations.

The mall, it's settled. It was the last thing that ever went through a town meeting without a plan. No plans?

No plans. Oh, it's just, all of our ladies lived in houses along there. And, you know, probably, we wanted to be zoned for probably like a bank or something like that.

It already blocked all the ladies out. And so ever since then, you ever see a town meeting, you come in with a plan, you decide whether you want to be zoned for it or not. That was the last one.

There's some big names that ran around with that, too. Ann Roxacre. Yeah, that was the last one.

So I tell people, you know, I'm down by Coles. I can see it from my living room window. That's where we came from.

Those, they were all duplexes, right? Right straight in front of you. That's where Hilda used to live?

Yeah. There was like two or three duplexes, and the rest were all single family. But we actually had, now it's a driveway going into Coles.

And then there was Appalachia. Where Mary Long lived was Appalachia, right? Because like Julie's store, Ted's Market there, that, in our day, it was Ted's Market.

Ted was alive. And they had a regular market. So it's a parking lot now?

No, no. The store that's still there? It's closed now.

Oh, right.

It used to be a wine store. Beer and Wine Club, and you might remember Ted's Market. Yeah, it was fun.

Back when we were kids, it was a market. It was like a grocery store. Oh, a grocery store, yeah.

Before Jamul went to school. Before Jamul was in, that stuff was in. And then a couple doors down, there was Mary Long.

I don't know if Mary Long was, she was always very, very involved in town. You know, Mary, she worked at the wine shop when she passed away. Wasn't she the postmaster?

She was the postmaster for a while. When we first moved out here, she was a postmaster. Very involved in different things in town since she passed.

Her house was like three down from there. And remember the first major grocery store we had was A&B, right? Where the center is now before Jamul was in.

We had an A&B there. And if not, there was all just these little sections. What's there now?

Well, the old center was stopping shops kind of thing. But it was the center. Oh, the center, right, the Route 360.

Right, but at A&B, all across the street was all farmland. All the down here in town, was it down here in? It was all farmland.

On this side of Jamul? Chelmsford Street. A&B was there before Jamul was.

Just as an aside, I'm scanning old pictures of the Historic Society. And I just scanned one within the last two days that is a picture of the farm that was there.

Yeah.

It had a barn on the left side of the house and all apple trees in front of it. And it said it was the site of Eastgate Plaza. Yeah, it's Dalgerians.

Yep. Dalgerian. D-A-L-G.

That's it?

No, D-U-L. D-U-L. Dalgerian.

Okay, I'll have to add that to the picture.

No, isn't that still there? Isn't there some Dalgerian still there? It's still there.

Yeah, I think it goes up to the Put down Evergreen.

Yeah, Evergreen. Wildwood.

What's that? Wildwood. Wildwood.

It's up to the end there.

So, like behind where they sold land the family still still lives up there. All Chelmsford Street was houses. You know?

There was no like Howard Johnson's wasn't that just built when But the golf station was out there. Yeah, that's true. Wasn't Howard Johnson's just built right before what year did 495 open?

62. 62? And that's when which one called?

That's when the restaurants went in there. There was where the highway was going through so they put a restaurant like Skip's was always there. But that Howard Johnson's was just built back then back when it came time besides that it was like all houses all houses were Excuse me?

Howard Johnson's was there before before the 62 Not much.

See it's a joke I remember things different so we'll just You can let us know later who's right and who's wrong.

I'll put my money on her though. I remember Howard Johnson's because they built the pool and we lived in a house in front of it. Usually when they expanded they built next to the interstate so they could pick up the travelers so I'd be surprised if they had one there before the highway.

No it wasn't in the spring I'm just trying to figure out when they built that you know because I remember it was 63 you know so it's probably after the highway but yeah because that Kelly I mean Ray Carey picked up a lot but you don't know if he was on the industrial board until he got the inside track I think he bought 129 up and I don't know the records there but I think he can't get the inside track but it's going to be available.

So you mentioned somebody on the gas station that was here before the fire you going to the garage there yeah right it used to be the fire station way back then where on Chelsea Street was Roger Boyd's Chevrolet with the Wonder Men I actually remember when we were here in the 70s he was still storing cars across Route 110 where the ball fields are yeah yeah yeah no I think we actually it might have been Colonial was it Colonial Chevrolet rather than Boyd's yeah it would be Colonial and then I forget what it was called yeah no they owned the gas station or I don't know if the owners or lease it themselves so that's been the west the little store it has always been a little variety store same with the Westland Packer store I know that you know they thought it was one time on its own and they were trying to put we always fought to keep this side of the store and were trying to this of the store and they were trying to keep this side of and they were trying this side of the and they were trying side of the store and they were trying to keep side of the store and they were trying to keep this side the store and they were trying to keep this side of the store and they were trying to keep this they were trying and they side side of the store and trying to this side they were trying to this side of the store were the side of the store and they tried were side of the store and they were trying to keep I remember as a kid going with him on Saturday mornings going to every pool hall in the world. Plugging the stuff. The cigar box was in front of them.

I'm trying to think right now. What are we on? We're on your family right now.

Well, he was asking what type of work. One of my friends, her dad was a college professor at BC. Another one of my friends, her dad, worked for a telephone company.

He was asking. Another one of my friends, her dad, worked for the customs. That's when she was a junior, had to move because her folks got transferred.

Her dad got transferred out of Boston. The influx from Cuba was coming over. He got transferred to Miami.

As he described, getting the cream of the crop was coming over in Cuba. Settling in the States. We still had farmers and stuff too.

I remember there was a farm right next door. Kyle's dad worked in suburban areas. He drove a milk tanker that would go to the farms, pick up the milk, and then bring it.

Go out through Dunn School and all that. I was just trying to, you know, another one. We had the aqua logic there.

He worked there too for Parham Cider Mill. Oh, yes. Yeah, that was a big industry at that time.

Employed a lot of people. That was a big place. Yeah.

Then we had the ginger ale factory where the two-cheese mill is now. That was an industry. You're talking about when my family first moved here.

I was just trying to figure out what type of job I'd like.

Did they commute or did they walk to work? Like you said, not. They probably walked to the mills.

My father used to commute to work in his territory. At one point, remember, it was up around Fitchburg. That's where he sold cigarettes, I think.

He'd be gone all week because Fitchburg was such.

He couldn't. There was no highways or anything. He'd leave like Monday morning and come back like Friday.

Isn't that right, man? Yeah. I remember my mother telling that when they were little.

Then he got a job closer.

If you worked in Fitchburg, then you couldn't commute there. It would just take a week to walk. He got sick a lot because he ate in a lot of restaurants.

He'd get toming poison. I don't know how many times.

From?

Yeah, from eating in so many restaurants. Did he stay in cheap hotels?

Yeah, yeah.

There'd been boarding houses there in those days. I think he just got a room someplace or something. That's right.

There were still hotels in the cities and boarding houses. Right. The bus system was big.

The bus system back in those days. Today, they run empty. But back then, there'd be nothing. My friends and I, every week and every second, we'd get out to the Strand Theater, all kinds of theaters of all. We'd take the bus. We were probably like, I don't know.

We were young. The world was afraid then. What was the bus company that ran?

Was it Eastern Mass?

Eastern Mass, yeah.

Eastern Mass. They took over when the trolleys went out. By the 20s, all the trolleys were gone.

Yeah. I don't remember trolleys except the ones that came back later.

Yeah.

The ones that you see now as a novelty. Yes. Yeah, I'm trying to think what else.

You know, in those days, probably just one of my friends' mother worked. Yeah. My eldest mother's where I was born, on a gas boiler.

My mother was a teacher. My father was... Yeah, that was the difference, too.

Most mothers were at home. You know. And most families only had one car.

You know. There was no such thing as two cars. And you'd have one TV, and that'd be in the living room.

Black and white. Black and white. No clicker.

Nobody moved. You had to stand up and turn the TV.

Yeah.

Yeah, we knew the kitchen. Radio was a big thing, I remember. Dad used to listen to...

Before we got TV, they'd always have one of those talk shows. Long Ranger. I don't even remember.

Yeah, I mean, here, people always talk about the different... We played outside a lot. I don't remember this.

Shadow? Yeah. Well, you and I were about the same age, Judy, and I remember when I was zero to ten or when I was one to five, there was radio shows that we used to listen to as kids.

Yes, I remember.

I remember being outside more. You were pretty excited. You were outside most of the time.

Most of the time. That's what I remember the most. Hanging out.

I don't know what we did. My brother, what's the age before going to service? The year my brother went into service, he left his car, and my parents backed out, and my friends and I lived in that car.

It was like a co-op. What was that, in the late fifties? When he went into service.

I was like fifty-something. Yeah, I think it was later than that.

But I tell you, it's like with Mary's friends and with my friends, like we used to have supper tonight with like five of my friends that went to school together. We'd still get together every Thursday and we'd do it for twenty, thirty years. Every Thursday night at seven o'clock we'd meet at Princeton Station, split a sandwich, have a glass of wine, one by seven.

But, the friendships back then were unbelievable. I think it's because... Name some of your friends.

Name some of my friends? Sure. Well, you know, Maren Carriere?

Yeah. Her sister, Martha Dubeat. What's her father?

Joanne? Crowe. Her name is Joanne Hedrick.

She grew up across the street from Howard Johnson. Her father ran the bowling alleys, George Hedrick. Everybody knows George.

Cheryl Marchand, part of Marchand Oil. Her father actually started Colonial Oil. She was Lee Marchand's daughter.

And... Is that five? Leo.

Leo. Yeah. So that's Cheryl, Hildane, no, Cheryl Colm.

See, that was like, some of us were in like sixth grade. But there was five of us by first grade together. Cheryl, Joanne, Martha, Maren, and myself.

Martha and Maren lived right down here on Woodbine Street. And... we're still really good friends for over six years.

Oh yeah, we still do plenty of stuff, but we just go on Thursday nights just to catch up.

Sometimes it's, sometimes it's like ninth anniversary, sometimes it's three. Or six. Ninth or six.

Yeah. It doesn't really make any difference who comes or doesn't, you know. We just have a good time.

And in my group of friends, there's like nine of us that, that we have stage friends. And how many's in your group? You've got...

Five or six of us. Five or six in her group.

I didn't hear that today. So who are your friends in that group? One good gal, Annemarie Froh, she grew up in Sunset, she now lives in Texas, tied in Texas.

Barbara White, Costello. She's from Florida. Joni Wolbrenner, she...

Joni Dodge. She lived in town and I still hang around her. Who's different?

Jean Gillette, went off to school with Jean. Irene Peterson, she lives in Weston. Mike Damaris, you know Mike Damaris, I think, Galloway.

I think it's Annemarie. Do you have any thoughts?

But some people will say they can't believe the friendships, and I think a lot of people. Chester was kind of the type of town, like the year I got married, like, eight of my friends got married in 1968.

Eight of us. I mean, we also part-time jobs to be in each other's weddings. And when we got married, like five of us, like my husband was in school in Colorado, Cheryl's husband was in the service.

They were in Alaska. Joanne went to Germany. My friend Kathy went to Philadelphia.

They all scattered.

That year, 68. By 70, everybody's back in Tempest. Everybody made it.

Now, where'd you grow up? In Danvers. Okay, so you're from there. Where'd Carol grow up? She grew up in Watertown. Okay, Massachusetts.

Where'd you graduate? High School, 63.

You weren't a graduate. Oh, you were a Cal. Yes.

Yeah, I graduated in 62. Carol graduated in 63. So you must have been staying in Danvers.

That's an easier going life. Is Danvers a town or a city? It's a town.

Okay. So a town being Now, did it end the growth that we had here, though? It did.

In fact, quick story, Ken and Ellie went into Danvers. Oh, they did?

Yeah.

There were huge, huge tracks of farmland. Yeah. When we moved there in 56, there was some railroad tracks, and on the other side of the tracks, we could go over there and just walk for miles through cultivated fields.

And, you know, you could smell the earth, fresh-tilled earth in the end, see things grow. And then Ken and Ellie bought it all and built all these slab houses. So, everybody in Danvers is saying, who would buy those silly houses?

So, when Carol and I moved to Chelmsford here in 1971, we bought a house in Farms 1, Camp and Ellie, just like the ones they built in Danvers. That's basically what happened out there. Made you feel like you were at home.

So, yeah, that was built in 1959, and that was it. Are you on Robert Lane? We are now, but we were on Donner Road.

And that was a big farm. And on Copper Road, forget the name of the family, I did know it at one time, but they owned quite a large piece in the back there all the way down to the middle pond there, Russell Mill Pond.

Yeah.

With Thanksgiving Forests and so on. So, you've been in Chelmsford since 1971? Gee, you're almost a townie.

I see.

Blowin', are you kidding?

We're blowin', yes.

Blowin'! Now, where'd you live before, in 56? 56, before 56? You said you moved to Danvers in 56?

Cambridge, Harvardscourt. Okay. Oh, you moved out of the city, huh?

Yeah. That was the old situation I think I was five when my parents got their first car and before that you'd take the train and the trolley and then go out to visit. You'd take the train up to New Hampshire, visit the relatives, they'd go to the station and pick you up.

So, I remember when I was really young. So, did you have train service here in Chelmsford? Not that I remember.

See, way back, you know, in West Chelmsford we had a station but I think They had something on Middlesex Street. I mean, there used to be was there a station?

By where the brick house is?

Oh, the guy that just put the the gates down. Yeah, by the brick house was maybe that. whether they just Well, there was there used to be a station there.

Historically, there was an active passenger freight station there. Hey, there was one south of center too, wasn't there? There was.

Even with the rest of it.

It's called where Ray Osborne's station is. Gas station. It's where the second rail station used to be.

For the Texaco? But isn't there one of the rest of the stations? That was a freight building.

The train station was on the side of the tracks where the gas station is. Texaco? Texaco.

Yeah. Well, it used to be something else. So, it was changed just within the last couple of years.

Yeah. Well, it's changed but began a little different. Yeah.

Yeah, it did. But, I don't ever remember going back to my father who worked. He had to do a report every night to get it down to the depot in Lowell, which isn't the same spot anymore.

But, I can remember he always was the last minute. Many nights I ran down the tracks to the guy at the caboose to get it in. So, there was a station in Lowell where the Rialto beer is?

No.

It's where the roadway is You know where the regular train station is now? In Gallagher Terminal. In Gallagher Terminal.

if you're going down Chelsea Street all the way, you know, and you come to the roadway, Chelsea down, if you took a right, you'd go to Gallagher Terminal. But, on the right before there was Keith Academy. That's where Keith Hall was or something.

But, over to the left, I remember there was a store there. There's a roadway there now, but there used to be a store.

Is that Keith Academy or something by the way?

No, Keith Hall. I think it was there. But, he had to go down this big staircase and that's where the depot was, down below on Middlesex Street.

But, in that area, they moved it down further. But, if you go, you know where the depot And, that's where the train station was. I think the Registry of Motor Vehicles used to be down in that neighborhood.

Before it? Just before that. It's up close to the train station.

It used to be a cafeteria. This was before the Rotary was put in. The gypsies used to live there.

Because, my father always said, don't leave. The gypsies would steal you. And, oh that's, see you just buy that.

We used to tell you to stand still. I don't know. If they sure you didn't go down.

See, in West Chelmsford there used to be a little station and people could hop on the train there and go anywhere. I don't know. I never knew anybody who took the train from There was one in South Chelmsford but I think that all closed up before our time.

I do too because I don't remember any of that. I don't remember anything. anything.

I don't remember anything. I don't remember anything. remember anything.

I don't anything. I don't remember anything. I don't remember anything.

know anything. I don't remember anything. I congratulated him on his Eagle Scout.

He had just gotten his award for Eagle Scout on Saturday. And then on Wednesday I picked up the paper I had scheduled him. I had seen him at...

I heard he was such a good kid. Where the Caldor's was, I think. It might have been the Caldor's at the time.

James Fields.

I saw he and his dad. Yeah. Yeah, it was James Fields originally.

So that was shocking. Horrible. And he knew Carol, so John had worked on Carol's school committee runs.

Okay, yeah. So she knew John pretty well. Going back to Campanelli.

When they planned the new Chelmsford High School, which is now the McCarthy School, they started planning it was in 57 or something like that. By the day the doors opened, it was already too small because of Campanelli. Because in 58 he got the development.

By the time 60 came, they were opening the school. All these people, especially like Hanscom, were buying all these places up. And the town almost doubled.

I mean, we were... Four times the size. Well, when we moved out here, it was 5,000.

Oh, when you moved out here. Something. My parents said it was like 4,500, 4,000 people.

It was a very short time. When it doubled, it was during the Campanelli's Justice Promise I and II. So it doubled.

And the schools weren't even... They were already talking. The schools weren't big enough.

Hicks was building a couple of developments, too, on the stage. Yeah, but not anywhere near the mass... These were mass production slabs, you know.

Boom, boom, boom. Hicks was building a more... I think he had more acreage with his thing.

More customers. And he was buying... I think he built a bigger acreage on a bigger lot of land and a different type of...

He had half acres and as far as one... He was building one acre. Yeah.

I didn't know he had half acres. I didn't think they were that big. But that came so quick.

That wasn't planned at all. I mean, they didn't let him gradually open it up. They just all came in at the same time.

Because that... I mean, Chester's town changed, you know, back in those days. It was late 50s, early 60s.

Right. By 1960, when Chester High opened on North Road, it was already done. So was it crowded when you graduated in 62 because of that?

I can't remember if it was. Because we had a bigger class. Our classes were...

I don't even remember now. Did you have 300 or something? I had the biggest class in the 50s.

It was 100 kids. Mastery Forest had like 87. And then Sandy's was around 57.

And you were 300? I think so.

I can't remember.

That's a pretty big increase. So those kids didn't care for nothing. Well, just a little side story not to get you too distracted.

Eleanor Parkers wrote a book for the committee to update town history. I don't know if you remember that project.

Did you used to work with her? Did you used to come pick your brain?

Yeah. The key premise in that book was the exact changes that you're talking about. So it's interesting to get this down.

This kind of corroborates what her premise is. Hopefully you'll be able to buy a copy of that book before the end of this year. Before I die.

Yeah, I know. See? Another one was Jane Drury.

God love her. Did you ever work with Jane? I did.

She said so much. She was just... I hope everybody captures her stuff down.

Well, Bill's on my list. How's he doing? He's been kind of quiet lately.

I haven't actually talked to him. I'm going to go and interview him. I did a lot of work with Jane in the last few years.

It was after she was diagnosed. She got the Guardian Award at the Historical Society. It was the first time I'd heard of her or met her.

After that, I got on to the Historic Commission to do the website for the commission. Plus, I'd say, 90% or more of the information that was in the files, Jane had created 72 on. So I got a lot of respect for her.

How long have you been on the commission?

What's that? How long have you been on the commission? About...

going on seven years now. She had actually had to resign from the commission because she was too busy doing the inventories for the commission. Then she got all the stuff from Ellen.

It was when Ellen had died. Yes. You know what?

v I was the only person that she let take anything out of her house because I was doing the website project. So I'd take stuff out and then put it back into the folders exactly the way it was and bring it back. So I had that unique opportunity to work with some of those files.

Some of the information came out of Ellen's files, but it turns out the book that Ellen wrote, which was never quite finished, Jane inherited, and it was in the cabinets. Then when she passed it to the commission by Linda Prescott... Yes, no, she's the other one who picked up the ball.

We moved from town hall to the town offices, and I got the job of buying new file cabinets and rearranging the files. So guess what I found in the files? What?

The book, the manuscript. It was in pretty rough form. It was a quirky typewriter, a lot of hand corrections.

Are you going to publish it? I've actually been working on it for close to a year and a half now. And I had a whole team...

It was down in Ellen's typewriter.

It was down in her typewriter, yes. So all the masters, you know her Looking Back articles, most of the masters of those articles are in there too. So now where are you keeping all this stuff?

Well, it's in the town offices, in the historic commission office. Oh, okay. It's room 110.

So being the discoverer of the manuscript, I look around and nobody else is saying, Oh, can I publish it?

I still met interest in it.

Something like 10 people, different people. I've got high school students through the library department at the high school.

Yeah.

And there's a couple people who work for the library, Bonnie Rankin, Jill Gates, and Linda Prescott's a healthcare worker, so she did the health section. Several other people that just wanted to work on it. On the book?

On the book, yeah. So they actually took the manuscript, typed it into Word format, and then I take it and I edit it and reformat it. So you remember a book called Looking Back that just came out last year?

It was a compilation of Eleanor's articles from Newsweek. The Historic Society has them if you'd like to get a copy. You can ask about it.

You can get a few copies. Get a couple copies if you'd like. Pretty good book.

Anyway, a girl who's in the publishing business, she lives in Westford, I believe, asked if she could be a part of the book too, so I went to the Cultural Council and applied this year and actually got a grant. It was escorted at 80%, so I get 80% of what we're looking for. And it was a very low budget they had, so we didn't do well.

And the Historic Commission put up some more to pay for this publishing. So she has the professional software to publish and I'm working with Courier Corporation to actually print up the books.

Now, are you retiring?

Well, let's... I was going to say... You guys are supposed to be doing the talking, but I'll talk about that real quick.

I did retire from Raytheon a year ago in September. Okay. And I just put in my application to go back part-time yesterday and it was accepted today, so...

And Raytheon? So next week I'll be reporting for duty. And Raytheon?

And Raytheon.

Okay.

No benefits. But you go back as a consultant, you get more hours. You get more per hour.

So I really didn't want to go back, but they twisted my arm pretty hard. Same old job? I mean, same...

You know, your job before? Yeah. They have a lot of new engineers, but they don't have the experience in these.

Okay. So that's why they twisted my arm. Working for some of my old friends here.

Well, I'm doing the same thing at Town Hall.

Are you? Going back?

Yeah, I've been back for... Same idea. Same idea.

No benefits. I've been back for like six months now because they had so many layoffs and so many new people. Every time they get new people in, they ended up that all the new people need to learn the jobs and there was like one person left that knew the whole system.

And so when John offered me, you know, like that, but no benefits, just I only work 12 hours a week. That's all. And it's perfect though because then I can help, you know, do stuff while there are people wanting it and stuff.

So I'm back there now. Okay, well, let's back up. Let's talk about when you first got in working with the town.

How did you get interested or make that your career to begin with? Well, I worked at the Registry of Deeds in Lowell before I was married, after I was married. And then when I had my son, I took a year off and then I decided I wasn't going back so I put in my resignation, you know.

And I stayed home. And then I had my daughter and I stayed home until 1985, I think it was.

And then my husband, his teacher in Wilmington, they had offered him like the, what do you call it, the vice principalship.

But he was a born teacher. So just to make a short story out of that, but he couldn't justify not taking it for the extra money and this and that. And so I said to him at that time, I said, I'll do a little work just for money because we'll just spend it, you know.

I said, besides, I've been home seven or eight years now. I'm ready to look for something. And at the exact same time, Jim Dusich was looking for somebody to work with the municipal certificates and stuff in his office, which was all working with lawyers, like I did in, you know.

So what was the name of that office again? I worked at the Registry of Deeds Enrolled. Yeah, what was Jim's office?

Jim Dusich, where I'm working now, the tax doctor's office.

Okay.

That's where I work now. Okay, but you're working with John Asusa now, right? Right.

But I'm talking back in 1985.

And so I went to work there, I sat up 12 hours a week.

And then I worked up to like 20, maybe, I think I was working on Cal Diet in 95, I think I was working 30 hours a week. And I did that for one more year and then I went full time for years. And then I retired in 2006 and I just came back six months ago. Same, the same idea.

You twisted your arm a little bit? Exactly. You were the one, you were the soft one.

Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, and it has worked out. It just happened to be I was the person they needed, you know, at that time and needed still now because like, you know, I said to them today, because it's real busy right then, right now, right? And I said, now I remember why I retired.

You know, before it's crazy like it is now. And you'll be thinking that starting next week.

Yeah, those are like little states, but no, I love it and it works out perfect and, you know, I just thoroughly enjoy it. I think you'll enjoy it because the pressure's not there. I mean, that's the pressure's not there.

I work from 10.30 to 2.30. Half an acre's hours.

Three days a week, four hours a day, so. So, Mary. Yes.

How about your career with TEMP? How did you get started? Or did you work, did you do something else before that?

Or did you? Yeah, I was the neighborhood lady. Neighborhood lady?

I was the neighborhood lady. Well, you were the, you were a Raytheon girl before. Yeah, kids.

Which one, Lowell? Yeah, one with the rendering millman. Yes, next to Carringo.

Spilling the stuff on Wednesday's at gate. I remember that. You had to eat breakfast because you had to smell it.

You learned how to hold your breath when you got over to the other end of it. No, I've always been interested in politics. What got me into politics.

You know, I'd rather swear at it back in. It was our mother. No, it was back, you know, when I was a sophomore in high school.

We had a gym teacher that got killed by the school committee. And we petitioned this whole town. At the time it was like 8,000 people.

We brought in 6,000 signatures. Our parents went to the school committee meeting with Vernon Fletcher, Mr. Russell, and Rick Johnson's dad, or I forget who the third one was. I can't remember.

And they would never listen to the parents. And then the four of us went over to Fletcher. It was the first apartment by Duncan Jones.

That was his first apartment building in Chelsea. And we went up to see why this courtroom was getting flooded. And Vernon Fletcher looked at me.

You know Vernon Fletcher's name. He said, I know who you are and what kind of years. Because my brother was going with his sister-in-law at the time.

And I swear, every election after that when Vernon Fletcher was running, I went to whoever ran against him. I didn't care if it was the devil. And I think that's what got me into politics, into being a justice of politics.

And what it turned out is either Nancy Corley was proud or good trying to unionize in those days. That's one story I heard later on. Another was B&O Greenwood.

You heard Greenwood's, you know, they used to have the storage in town. Fletcher was his son-in-law. It was a company.

I did Bob Greenwood last week. So I did learn about his sister and his dad. And his sister's married, I think Fletcher's married to Vernon Fletcher.

You know, they lived on Westwood Street. And, but I mean, Vernon was a cocky guy. But he'd seen hit the polls.

I mean, I'm talking I was 14 or 15. I wasn't that old. He'd be standing out there.

But when I got elected the first time, it was the first week of getting to shake my hand and congratulate me. You knew there was no high feelings. But no, so that I've always liked elections.

I always felt, you know, somebody's running. Two people running, you should not pick who you least like, but pick who you would like to see get in. So I've always had that.

But when Charlotte DeWolf said, I have to go and pay for one night. And three kids, whatnot. Not a quote.

In those days, she held two positions. Town clerk and treasurer. Two separate places in the ballot.

And for common, you know, for town clerk, with qualifications, it just took a little hard work. You know, treasurer, you need a little more accountant background. So I passed it around and decided to run for that.

Figured it was a good part-time job. You know, if she did both jobs, I could do one job. Was she running at the same time?

No, she was retiring. She was retiring in 71, so 72. And so this is where John Alden and then a Bob Noble was running for both jobs.

And Roberta Worcester was running just for town clerk. So those four was running for town clerk. And then Phil McCormick jumped in just for the treasurer's.

So it became a clear case where you could vote for two. You know, so that's how McCormick and I won. So then I ran for six other times for 18 years.

I was elected until the charter went in in 1989-90. And I became an appointed position. It turned out very well.

I can remember one of the ones I consulted and said, that job's going to pay 10 grand someday. I went, wow, I never thought I'd make that. So you blasted right through that.

Went right through that. Oh, jeez, yeah. Many, many times more.

But I think a big thing to this is when Charlotte DeWolf and half the people, she was just an isolating subject that you were afraid of. Did you know Charlotte? From working on the book?

She was involved as liaison to Evelyn Gaines. Your predecessor? No, she was the manager's office.

Okay, so she was the manager's assistant. I have some of her correspondence in her journal. No, did you ever meet Charlotte?

No. She was very intimidating. You'd go in there and she'd go, all right, what do you want?

And you'd say, well, come on, take your time.

And if you were a Democrat, you could just about drop dead in front of her and she would kill you. Like if you go to register to vote. So Mary ran on the philosophy that the town clerk's office should be an information place.

It should be a friendly place.

It should be a place where people can come and if they have any questions, she really started the practice of what it is today, which is still that way today. Town clerk's office is a place that, you know... It's usually your first place.

Right, and they're in information.

That's what they're there for. Charlotte, because she did the both jobs too, but in her day it was just get in and get out. But her whole campaign...

You talk to some of the ones that worked for Charlotte. They're just funny. Of course, you're going back to those days when people could smoke at the desk or whatnot.

Was she a smoker too? Oh, not very. No, she was...

But the different ones, Mary Jones I mean, they'd hide cigarettes in the bathroom. I mean, you have to ask permission to go to the bathroom. You know what I'm saying?

They'd hide cigarettes in the sill. You know, in the bathroom. I'd go to the bathroom.

They'd go in the bathroom. One time, Mary Jones would stand in Charlotte's routine of like a certain day of the week she went to the hairdresser. So of course when she went out of the office Mary Jones would get up and Charlotte would be back.

She'd throw that cigarette in the dryer. I love cigarettes. I mean, she was just an intimidating lady.

In fact, John Alvin that I was running against, she trained him for six months. She thought that was her replacement. And yet she wasn't...

She wasn't too friendly to me when I took office. You know. I got my education the first year of the job.

If anything would go wrong, everything went wrong that first year. Six weeks on the job, we had a recount on the town committee. The first election I ran was six weeks on the job.

It ran for 36 hours. It was paid ballots in those days. Two groups were running for the town committee, so we had to find a quarter of a million, 250,000 votes between 35 one group of town Democrat men, 27 other names from the other.

It went from a Tuesday until a Thursday afternoon. It was just a nightmare.

It turns out he had no staff because the way the election went off is that she won town court and somebody else won, so the office gets split on election day.

It always was one office.

Charlotte had no office.

She built her staff through the Treasurer's office. She could always justify the plan and go, oh, I need another clerk. I've got to bring the money in.

She had a team. When I took office, I ended up with just Millie Kershaw and Phil McCormick. I ended up with three or four clerks.

So then Betty, who's there today, she was 18. Betty's been in 38 years. God love her.

She's got less of a staff today than I did in 17. It's disgusting. Finance gave me money.

Five hundred bucks. I could hire her for five weeks. They gave me more money and Betty has stayed on ever since.

That's how it used to be. I built the staff. Was Betty on your staff?

Since she was 18 years old?

Yeah. She was just out of high school.

Yeah. She came on just like I said. I can't guarantee her more than three weeks a week.

She's a very helpful person. So you've trained her well. She's a lifesaver.

She deserves better than what she's getting right now. Just as an example, the committee was trying to figure out why the book didn't get published. So I called and I asked her if she could look up some records concerning the 1981.

It was a town meeting warrant. I heard that it went to town meeting but I didn't know what the result was. She found out that Paul Hart had put it in.

In 1991 she went all the way up. No, no, I'm sorry. It was 81 I think.

Paul Hart put it in. In 79 it got withdrawn and then in 81 it got submitted and unanimously approved. What's this?

For $18,000. This is the book that Oliver wrote and never got published. So what I'm leading to is I asked Betty to look into it and she went and found the warrant and she made copies of everything for me and it showed that it was actually $18,000 unanimously approved for the publication of this book.

So when I get a chance I'm going to go to Selectman and say I'm reporting to you that the remnants of this committee that was in the documentation it was clearly voted but they never took it. Where did the money go? Under the control of the Selectmans.

Project is under the control of the Selectmans so I have to report to them and say we're working on your project and now the town has authorized $18,000 so when can we get that? Is the money still in the system? No.

Well they never rescinded that vote. I'm going in with a sense of humor and no illusions it was going to be any money. I mean it should be in a pocket somewhere.

You never know. The state actually authorized $100,000 for the town hall the center town hall for redoing the outside. They did it though.

Well we didn't have a plan. They were just waiting for the town to go in with a plan. Well they did that in the 80's.

This is different. This is more recent. So now we have the we had a study committee this summer and of course Selectman approved it.

It went to the permanent building committee they're getting an architect that's doing a feasibility study so spring town meeting there's a plan to rebuild the center and the north town halls. And there's going to be a cross associated with it. Is it part of the stimulus program?

No. It's going to be CPC funded. It's not coming out of the tax.

It's not the same pile of money that the fire station and the DPW were paying. No I meant part of the stimulus package.

So Community Preservation Act will pay for the whole thing?

Community Preservation is going to bond it. But $100,000 from the state. I was on that utilization committee this summer and one of the members is actually running for Selectman Matt Hanson.

He went to the state house and he found that it's there. All we have to do is come Paul has to go in with a plan. And now we have a plan.

Next week we're going to get the first shot at the cost of the whole project. CPC is going to pitch it. Paul is going to pitch it.

Good plan. It's a good solid plan. It's the Center for the Arts down here in the center.

Community Center.

What are they going to do for the building?

Completely restore the exterior of the historic. Take the vinyl siding off. All the utilities.

Elevator. Great job. 40 site parking on the other side of the fire station.

That's big. It's town land. Paul and the fire chief worked on that.

That's awesome.

They hire local contractors and stuff. You're the first to know. You don't check that off at all, do you?

We actually presented our final report at the Selections meeting. People got a first peek at what was going on. We just saw those last week.

The cost is coming in next week. It's exciting. Will they have enough money to keep the arts going? All they have to do is pay the yearly operating expenses. The Center for the Arts is already in progress. The building is in use every day.

Part of our recommendation was that they should start right away. They'll have to shut down when the building gets redone. It's going to be a massive restructure.

That's wonderful. For years they were talking about an office, but I saw for so many years they're finally going to be able to build an office.

That's marvelous. I get tired of people talking about things and not doing anything. You've got the ball rolling?

The Selectmen are the ones that form the committee. Who's on your committee? Steve Roberts.

He ran for Selectmen last term. He's now on the permanent building committee. That's the group that is responsible for all the town facilities.

They selected the architect. There's a group of North Chelmsford residents, Laura Lee. I'm not sure if you know her.

It's kind of a Barney Park Improvement Association. It's been active. Once they realized that, oh my God.

They can thank David Hedges. Exactly. That's how it started.

So you get back to the history. Bernie Reddy was out there beating the drum. He could be nasty.

He treated David wrong. David backed off and Paul was faced with what to do. On the historic commission we've been concerned about both buildings for all the time.

I've been on it well before that. Jeff Stallard worked in the 90s. Oh yeah, George Merrill.

George was still on the commission. He got thrown off by the way. Did you know about that?

He didn't get renewed by Bernie Lynch. Jeff Stallard resigned because he was getting married and moving to Draven. He resigned and gave George his seat.

He resigned and gave George his seat. But you can't. You still have to be appointed by Bernie.

They let it go. So now it's a new administration and right now George is the chairman. We elected the chairman last year.

You know you stand with George Merrill. Yes, that's true. Even if he asked you that one more question than you wanted to be asked, you know you stand with George Merrill.

He's got a good sense of history. He's been there. He knows more.

He was the North Chelmsford town kook at the town meetings. He was the guy that stood up and would hammer home a point. And he might be at odds with most of the people.

But he gets on something. So I can see why Bernie might... Bernie didn't like the question.

Bernie didn't like the question. George could give you the problem but he didn't have the solution. You know, that's the thing.

Sometimes he's always against... Like against the library and against... He's a real Republican.

I don't know where you are but that's what I'll say. Well I know where you guys are. I've been 4-1 so I'm not going to say a word.

I'm a good Democrat. I'm a good Democrat. I am a Democrat.

You've been 4-1? Carol knows. But it's all good.

Carol's an old friend. She said yes. I always enjoy...

I tell her I miss her at the bank because we always check up on the kids.

Now where are your boys now?

One's in San Francisco. One's in Somerville. They both got married this year.

No grandkids yet. They both got married this year? Isn't that a riot?

36 and 33. Wow. They act like two Irish kids.

Now which one's in the 36 or 33-year-olds in San Francisco?

36 in San Francisco, yeah. They just bought a house in the city. How long's he been out there?

Did he go right out of college? No, he was in San Diego for 4 years and then went up to San Francisco and worked for a few years and then he met his girlfriend in San Diego and followed her up to San Francisco. She was in school.

He was working. So she got her degree as a pharmacist and she's working at San Francisco University of California. And what does your son do?

What does your son do? He works for Thermo Fisher and he's an application specialist for... chemistry...

instrumentation kind of stuff. He's a scientist. He was halfway through his Ph.D. and decided he didn't want to do it anymore so he exited with a Master's degree. But he spent 3 years at Mass General doing research Alzheimer's and glaucoma. 3 years at UCSD working on Ph.D. in neuroscience and then he worked at a lab up in San Francisco and then he decided he didn't want to do any more lab work so he went into the sales end of Thermo Fisher and then he went into the application so he can speak as a researcher with people who are doing research. He knows the environment.

He knows the language down pat. So all his co-workers rely on him for the techie information the inside scoop on... What about your younger guy?

What's he doing?

He works for a company that does manuals for Volkswagen user manuals and stuff like that. And he lives in Selma? Yeah, he lives in Selma.

No, I think they do the software like PDF documentation so we hope to find out more when we get together with his wife. We've all been kind of busy so we have to go. We've been out to San Francisco.

We went out to put a wedding. Big party. Major party.

Big family event. Mom wants to talk to you real quick. Spencer wants to hear your address.

I'm supposed to get that the whole time.

Hello!

So back to Town Hall. What are your favorite stories? You said you had a couple good ones already.

The cigarette in the drawer. I have a few from my childhood. It was just great.

In the 70's we started the old Town Hall and then we moved over to the present site. Tell me what it was like in Town Hall before you moved. Did you go to the Emerson house for a short time?

Not right about now. I might have been down there. That Town Hall was either 36 degrees or 100 degrees in the winter.

You never saw 70's. I mean I think that it's so antiquated. We learned to like each other because my office, I mean it was four or five of us in this little two room cubby hole.

So you keep the heat up just from your body heat? Well no, it just had a terrible system and then once we moved they put a new boiler in. I mean yeah, you walked in now and you see the way it looks.

Yeah, it was all done after we moved out. But no, it was just it could be very cold. I mean you'd sit there with your coat on all day working.

This was pre-computer based. No AC? In the window.

No, I think they did do didn't they do AC? They did, but that was probably after you moved out. But no, we had not just in the window.

But no, it was a nice group of people. I mean it really, you know it really was a I enjoyed my 31 years. I really did.

It was something I could handle and it was something that I feel you know, I mean started with paper ballots brought them on to the punch pad brought, you know, I think we went to school. No, because we didn't go to that. I wouldn't go to that IBM card.

I could never, you know from paper ballots I always thought we still needed a name on a card. So you either had I forget what they were called. There was one that was like a booklet that you actually just put an IBM card in and went from 100 to 1 to 250.

That's what the chads were. Jim, we went to the dotter vote which was a card with the name on it. You just push the thing down, punch the hole.

Oh, a lever to punch the hole out of it. No, it was a remember it was a little machine that you went in the booth. It was a little machine you put your card in and you punch.

It's almost like a punch. It's almost like punch. It punched a hole but it wouldn't go in there.

And then we packed up at the end of the night and brought it back and put it through a computer back at the general hall. Then we went to the uptech and then to the Yeah, fill in the circle with a black Yeah, and then I mean that was the biggest thing. I think the biggest thing was I said go back to 72 six weeks on the job, 36 hours.

There's a case where the same and probably the average worker was 75 years old worked the same went right through the whole election and then counted. And now I can remember saying to every man, I gotta get workers. You know, I mean it's foolish.

And you know, so that's when we stopped putting I stopped putting extra counters on at night, putting up people so they were at a counter. They brought the election night down a lot better. Then when we went to the machines that's where, you know, rather than confuse the older ones we ended up going, I did two shifts.

So you had the younger people at night when you had to pull it all together and you're still able to keep the older people and mostly women in those days working. And they were fine. They were glad to go home at 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

They were there from 6 to 9. And then I think that's probably one of my bigger accomplishments. Always when I felt a good election.

You know, nobody... The election workers at the precincts are all reporting to the clerk's office Oh yeah, the town clerk runs all the elections. I think the age looks like it's still about 75 years.

Yeah, but I'm getting an asthma. I'm not with that age almost. They don't look as old anymore.

I was 33 when I took the job. They looked old in my days, but they were sharp. Now I feel that I always treated everybody the same.

I felt the same way. No one could ever say, gee Mary treated me different than you. I always felt you go by the rules and nobody would believe you.

The rules are rules, not two sets of rules. You know, I enjoyed it. Life passed.

I've been out seven years. That's how we got past it. And I haven't gone back to work.

No attention. It is funny when I everybody... I always said I wasn't going to retire until my last grandchild was 18, which meant I'm not going home babysit.

It was just the opportunity came up. The early buyout. And then Bernie was going to lay off one in the office.

He put the two of them together. So you left an opportunity for somebody else to stay there. Well, it was a case where I put it together with 80% of what I'm saying.

But it didn't turn out very well. I mean, you know, it's almost four years now. I had to go to the accountant with the hose up and everything.

But no, it worked out well. You know, the whole thing. Oh, and then that was in September.

And by December David Hedison called. Scott Johnson wasn't running again. He said, what do you think?

Run for housing. But then I did. So, I mean, I'm still in politics but in different areas.

So you're in housing? It's not politics, it's public service. I've been in the housing authority since then.

I've run twice now. So five years. So you've been, that'll be ten years in the housing authority?

No, eight. So it's been five years? It's five years.

This is my second five-year term. I retired in 2002, ran in 2003. So in 2008 I ran, and then again I'll be running over 12 or 13.

So, you know, I had to adjust for all three time, because I still stayed in politics, but in a different area. You know, we built a new place with another one on it.

You know, David's just...

Not just another one coming on board this spring. You know, David just does a great job. Even his intent with the two places, I mean, that was an intent to, he'd give a 12-step anybody on anybody.

That was the first time anybody actually came up with an actual use for the building, at least for Noah. Yeah, I mean it's just... And I honestly feel that when you say veterans, I think people still think of Vietnam vets that sit with a button that's stoned or drunk out.

I honestly feel that people kind of get scared off of that, you know, bad image of it. You know, that isn't where it's at. But no, David just...

He's the hottest looking man I've ever seen. He puts so much into it, but he... He's so visionary.

He just gets so things done. He's such a visionary person, it's unbelievable. He sees things that other people don't.

Well, I went to the police station when he gave his presentation. I thought it was very well done, very well thought of. And that was brutal.

He had pneumonia. And they were brutal to him. It's a personal thing.

What ended up happening wasn't that he saw this opportunity, but it was all... He had all his holidays. He didn't care which way it went.

He just wanted to give it to the people. But that crowd to me treated him like, well, what's in it for you? I was there that night, too, and I was so disgusted because I knew the word.

I could see people saying on one, you know, David wasn't trying to jam it down their throat, but they were almost like attacking, like Sue Gates, who was a good friend of mine. You know, it's like that. That was, to me, that was...

When things become passionate for a job, right? Right. It was just out of, to me, for what he was trying to do, and the time limit he had for it.

You have to say that he more than earned his money. He did it basically on his own time.

It was just for the need of the town. Oh, yeah.

And then when it went to something else, he couldn't care less.

It's almost like, you should have applied yesterday. I mean, you're saying, why don't you think ahead? I mean, they...

Well, even with early retirement, it's almost like giving... Well, you probably had that at work. You're going to tell me now, well, forget it.

You're going to miss the opportunity. I mean, David, you know, through the computer and his contacts in Boston and all, he saw money, lots of money that was available. Well, he basically got very lucky that we had in Boston to do another one.

Well, I just worry that. Very, very lucky. He's a townie, but through the state.

You wouldn't believe how high-ranking he is in the state.

His reputation, what he's done.

He gets a lot of grants. It's grant money. Well, isn't it like the one, the federal program is almost like a pilot program out there.

They're not village funds. Yeah. And now this one is, the newest one is, it's almost like a grant.

I don't want to say, six, seven million from part of the stimulus package. Some of you are doing tax credit, and that part's over my head. You know, it's different.

Some of our places are, I'd say, maybe Smith Street and Wilson Street is like federal and state combination type of thing. The one out, or they might be state, and then the one out, you know, the Delaney Tariff, some are state. There's different things.

I think states kind of get rid of it and have it all federal funded. But the north one, the newest one, they're in partnership with the, I'm not drawing a blank, Elder Service Group. Now, this new one was supposed to be for corporations for tax write-off, if they, you know, buy out or something.

But then when the economy came up, so we're almost going to lose it, and then through the bus and all, we're going to be able to get it in, because they know David's reputation and the stimulus package out of that money that's put out for the house and the state's reputation is good. He produces, you know, they give him money, he puts it right to work, so we get it again. It's like the vouchers for Section 8.

You know, families that need assistance, you know, that they're living, you know. Something will come on the computer for them that, you know, there's a hundred vouchers. He'll apply for it.

He got the whole damn bunch. They know he'll, you know, he'll use them and stuff. So, you know, he's got a good reputation that way.

It's good to know where some of that stimulus is going. I was driving down 128th earlier today, I saw the sign, but I haven't seen anything really local. Well, she's seeing it this week, and I'll talk about to spend more damn money on those damn signs and stimulus money than any projects.

You know, the different states are doing this. Trying to close that, wrapping this up. I want to watch Jay Leno trying to find a new senator.

Oh, he's got it? Yeah, 10 on 10. Oh, okay, but that's at the end of the show.

Yes. Of course. It's about 20 hours.

Well, I'll tell you what, we can wrap it up. If you each tell me your favorite story, whatever you want to talk about. Favorite story of what?

Like what? Like of this town? People you know, something that happened?

I can start. I know my favorite story right off the thing was when we, when my dad died, my sister had heard what Camp Wallace just thought. So, she had said that Reverend Wallace wanted me to get to Camp Wallace, and we did.

And we took us from dad died in January until June to find Camp Wallace, because he, like, disappeared. Camp Wallace disappeared in the summer. In the winter time.

And, um, so we made a contribution and then they asked Mary to go on the board. Because see, Mary always volunteers for me. So Mary says, well, no, I got three kids.

She doesn't have any kids. She might ask her or call her. So I went on the board and that was in 1973.

And then in 1978 my son was born.

And that year, we, um, we had, Camp Paul had been around since 68. We were putting up tents. We were working with the Army.

Working with Ray Paul. And we, um, found a piece of land where they are now on Quonket Road. And my husband was on the search committee.

It was a committee that was out looking for land. They found the land. And when it came time to, like, buy it, it was like $100,000 back then.

16 acres. And that is, and I think my favorite story is how we met with this, like, I mean, keep thinking fundraisers. We had no money.

We had $2,000 to put down.

Somebody had just given it to us at the end of December because for their tax reasons, they gave it to Camp Paul. And we had that put down on it. So we met with this fundraiser, and he goes, this is what you need to do to raise this kind of money.

And so we met with him, and we all go, we can't do that. We need to get 250 solicitors to go out and make five calls each.

Blah, blah, blah. And then the paperwork is going to, like, be phenomenal. So one of my friends and I said, you know, so the group said, no, we can't.

We don't have that kind of thing. And so I go, no, that's really a shame. Because this could work.

I said, but how would you keep all that records?

How would you possibly keep all that straight? And she goes, I don't see that as a problem. She said, where do you find 250 people?

I go, I don't see that as a problem. I said, because Trimston's an unbelievable community for stuff like that. And we said, well, if that's the case, let's do it.

And I talked to my sister, and she goes, sure, you know.

So we basically bought Camp Paul. The majority of the people were solicitors from this town. And in three years, we raised the money of three-year pledges.

And the people pledged extra-money dollars for three years. And they stuck to their pledges. They stuck to their pledges.

And this town, to me, that was one of my proudest moments of this town, is because that was back in the late 70s, early 80s. And they, which McCollough, in those days, it's totally different now.

I mean, Camp Paul's still a very I mean, if you ever spent any time with retired children, or if you ever spent any time at Camp Paul, it is the most back in, like, in college in my day, it was the most rewarding thing. Today, there's so much more. But back in those days, the parents really had no respect whatsoever, you know, that children would be there.

These kids would go to Camp Paul. The parents would have the days off. But the town of Johnson, as a community, came together and they just raised funds.

I mean, we got money from outside of Johnson, but the majority of the fundraising, the majority of the work was all done by Johnson people, and proud of it. That was 30 years ago, and those people are still my friends today. I'm having, you know, coffee with one of my friends tomorrow that I met at Camp Paul as a volunteer.

And I say that was one of my favorite stories of what this community, and I find it, I mean, that Trumps still has that same spirit, even though we've grown bigger, you know, and all this other stuff, but there's still that thing about Trumps that, well, it doesn't make any, we kid about the townies, we kid about if you're from north or from the center, I mean, that water's always been on, it's always gonna be on, you know.

Neither one of us would want to live on the other side of town, all that. We kid about the blow-ins and stuff like that, but deep down, the new people in town, the people in north, the people in center, they stick together.

They really, as a community, I think, have really, and I still feel it, even though there's all kinds of differences, I still feel that sense of community here, that you'll let something come up, and the town will rally, and we'll get it done. That's what I think.

Just to add to that is, she and Carl, and five other couples, put up their house as collateral, and I think that's a lot of faith. We had to have collateral to make sure that money came through. So we put up a buyout kit, because at the time, you know Joe Shanahan, right?

Well, his wife was a volunteer at Camp Paulist, first wife Kathy. And so Kathy said, Joe said, you're crazy.

You should never do something like that. You know, some of the people that put, there was five of us that did it. I go, they got a hell of a lot more money than I do, so I'll take their houses first.

My house is worth nothing. The house is worth a big box. But we got a good place to buy it.

We just signed the bottom line. Yeah, we just never, and within three or four years, Camp Paulist, it was five years altogether, it was owned outrig

ht. And they got their deeds back.

Yep, we got, yep.

Happily ever after.

Yep, it was still struggling today, but I still hope it makes it, it serves the population that needs it so bad. It's unbelievable. As a matter of fact, my daughter is a special ed teacher.

I swear she teaches at the center school, and I swear it has something to do with, you know.

Your influence there.

Well, I think that the awareness of, you know, the handicapped, you know, I remember Colin and I went to a place, I don't know if they still have it in Waltham, it was called the Toronto School.

Yes.

Do they still have that?

I think it's closed.

Okay, it was, we went down there one day.

They had some exposés on it.

Yeah, what was really exciting about it is that we took kids, you know, from here, we took kids like from Boston, so we took, so this one year we got into taking kids from the Toronto School, but institutionalized since Barton. And we took kids, you know, we made arrangements with the school they'd get a bus up from here, but we didn't try. We raised money in those camps.

For Camp Paul. Okay, okay. So we raised money for Camp Paul, for the campus to come, but then we needed the Toronto School to provide transportation, so Colin and I went down to the Toronto School to talk with people, take a tour.

It was a sight of one I've never seen before. I mean, I cried all the way home. It was so sad, so I don't even want to go into it, but I mean, it was such an exciting thing to do, to get these kids, you know, up here and...

Now I'm wondering, behind, in the complex with the senior housing, this duplex was just built this year, and now has eight or six, eight individuals there that might be from the Toronto School. It's the first living out there.

Really?

It's like a group home. Is this under Davidson's program? I mean, Davidson's program?

Yeah, yeah. This is why when that, and he's got a letter in tonight that Craig hit in 40B, we would not have these places if it wasn't for 40B. You know, so that, I mean, he's unfair when he, you know, wants to talk about growth in town.

You're a little too late, kid. You should have backed up Campanella. He still went after his father, for God's sakes, but no, I mean, people tend to forget that 40B allows you to put municipal buildings up, like the Lady Terrace, the new one we're going to be having.

So it's good to 40B. It's the crooks in 40B that need to be weeded out. Well, he, I think he was a key in shooting down the fire station with the DPW, so I with that publication he put out the night before the election, so I emailed him the night, listed several points that I disagreed with him on, so we went back and forth a few times.

We agreed to disagree. Davidson got fined. He did?

The group? That group got fined?

Yeah, it was easy to be anti-Davidson.

It was, there was some untruths there, and that's, you know, I had been following, I had been to the hearings, the public hearings, and some of the things he said were just flat out untrue, and the only, well, his target was people that hadn't been to the meetings and didn't really know what was going on, so he put in some spear tactics that were really unfair.

But it's so easy to be anti-anything. It's so easy to, like, criticize, what is his, how does he put it?

I had heard he was from a well-known family town, and I said, how can you do this? You know who he is. Jim Lee, you know who he is.

Well, I've never met him. You know John?

And Linda?

John Jim Lee, who is getting it backwards to be nice to you. Right, and he's a sweetheart. John Linda, no, he's a fanatical kid.

I mean, his father must be dying, because his father is the opposite, I think. It's okay, it's okay. We thought you were going to be very interested in him.

Well, I'm not.

I gave John a compliment. John is a very congenial man that contributes to everything and everything else. And to have, you know, this kid just needs to be a little booty ass about it.

Well, he has, he's not looking at life from a realistic sense. I don't think. He's cynical.

We don't need cynical people. No, we need creative people. We need people that see a vision.

And like Bobby Kennedy says, why not? Some people look at something and say, why? Other people say, why not?

You know, I think that's what we need.

A body being needs probably tuning up, but not to throw it out. Then your contract is going to go by. All right, now what?

You want my opinion? You tell me about the 100 degree to 40 degree I think, I think, me personally, I think the fun was moving over to my old high school. In the principal's office.

And getting the principal's office. For the next 20 years, I was like going back to school every day. So I didn't, you know, it wasn't a job that was fun.

I do think that that was, you know, a sentimental journey. It was kind of nice, I think, to be in your old high school. Had people through the years come in and say, my day in the 50s and all, every room had a teacher's name to it.

When we had our 25th class reunion, it was six weeks after we moved there in 81, we had it downstairs in the gym. Those days you could get a one day liquor license. So we had a tour, and afterwards, some of the gals from the town hall came in that night to open their office, and they couldn't get over.

They said this was Mr. Nolan's room. People go through, they say, oh this is Mr. Hicks' room. You know, every office room had a teacher's name.

Not many, you know.

But I mean, it was, you know, and then our 50th reunion, we had, it skips three years ago. I just, in my mind, thought, this place isn't going to be here forever. These kids are getting older.

The kids are getting older. You know, the oldest of the skips. So, you know, we have pictures of skips, you know.

And our day in the 50s, used to be kids' ice cream stand, and skips. It's the only place we even knew of. I mean, you know, after a dance, you went to skips.

You had your English muffins and your hot chocolate. On a Saturday night, between skips and the ice cream stand, there'd probably be 50 of us in the parking lot there.

Every evening, they never kicked us out. We hung out there. In the cruises, we'd fly in a few times, just to make sure no one was getting rowdy.

It was just like, you know, you'd eat your ice cream over a period of two hours, and that was the town hangout, there in the bowling alley.

And then the funny part, you know, was the ice cream stand was right in front of where Greenwood and others dumped their search. It was funny. So you ate your ice cream smelling...

Ooh! It made your flavor of your ice cream taste the same one everybody's had. No, but I mean, it just...

But no, it was different. Different stories. You know, I was a J.P. for 30 years. Some of the... Just for the peace. I, you know, I liked doing it, but it went with the job.

Massachusetts now, my father's came down in those days. I'm a town clerks. Do any weddings in town hall?

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I did.

Out front, everywhere. Little chapel in the back room. I thought one of the funniest was, this is when we were in the old town hall, but this little old couple came in, and one of the, you know, I think it was the guy's daughter was with them, that they applied for the marriage, and then they booked me to do the wedding, and I did it.

It was so cute to watch them as they went out. The father sat in the front seat. The girl was driving.

The bride got in the back. Going home to take a nap. I did.

Probably one of two or three people, probably the first and second marriages. One marriage, I got challenged by a kid's uncle. I had fired him from New York.

In somebody's living room, he challenged me that You'd say, is anybody object to this marriage?

Yes, I cut that out of my service.

You always thought, is anybody object? Yes. People were on the floor.

Keep it going. Keep it going. I'd been tipped off when I walked in.

My uncle's going to object. I must say, I was a nervous wreck. I made a bride look calm.

I had to do a wedding. That's how it is. I continued and did it and talked to a man afterwards.

That was on a Sunday. Next day at the work, I get this phone call. By the time when I got to work, I got a call from Boston right away saying, Did I do this right?

They were over 18. License was taken out of my office. Paperwork wasn't.

Check me or anything. I get this call from a lawyer. The guy had gone to a lawyer to see what he could do.

By then, I'd just gotten off the bus. I actually told him in Boston. Thank you. He called back and said, I sympathize with you. I said, I hope you've charged him good for what he put me through yesterday. What was his objection?

It turned out probably right that the boy was going to get married to get out of a poor home situation. The funny part, No, they divorced. I went to this kid's brothel.

He was a hairdresser there on Fletcher Street. He said the funny part is that uncle gave that brother more as a wedding gift than he did the others. The lawyer charged him 150 bucks or something to give him his opinion on whether he could stop the wedding or not.

There's some funny stories with weddings. One guy would come in and say, Many a day I curse you out. Because you're married.

I said, I told you there's no money back, Aaron G. What can I say? So you said you had a chapel as a clerk's office?

No, no. We called it a chapel. We'd take him out by the tree outside.

We'd hang him out the window and yell at him.

We'd take him upstairs and slap him in the face. We did it. I bet he still does it today.

We go to houses. I've done it. She'd go to houses and she'd make me come with her and stay in the car.

See, I have a little sister. Just to make sure. She knows houses and I'll come get her like a big merchant.

I had to do it out by I think there's all camps out there now. In West Long Pond or where they now have those condos. Her pal was at a campsite.

I said, can we ride out? So he sat in the car and said, let me come out. I think I can pay him maybe a hundred bucks.

I'm going to get a bottle of junk. Is your man forgot brandy? I mean, what ever you drink.

She doesn't know what's going on in a strange house. I'm sitting there and she comes up and we had a smirk on our face and I go, why didn't you pay me?

Did you ask her? No, you couldn't.

Is it there with me? A couple came on a motorcycle to ride in her gown and they couldn't find my house so they went to a little store up there. They said, a couple of you in a bridal gown.

They came and the guy's all tattoos and she's in a bridal gown. Yeah, it's funny. No, it's a good ride.

It's a good ride. So we have to hook up? Well, we can wrap it up here if you'd like.

Okay, we'll wrap it here.