This is Fred Merriam. I'm here at Central House with Brad Emerson. And the date is August 4, 2011.

And I'll let Brad take it away from here. Well, back to my recent comment. It was the beginning of a new town history, which the town meeting had voted to have.

And Eleanor Parkhurst and Charlotte DeWolf were the committee of two. They worked well together, good friends. And the project got bogged down and supposedly put in a trunk that was in Eleanor Parkhurst's basement.

And it was arranged that with Eleanor's approval, that the minute that the notes and all that they had prepared would go from her to Jane Drury. And Eleanor approved of that. However, in the meantime, I made the mistake of giving the good news that the notes had been found and they were going to go to Jane.

And I mentioned that to another gentleman who thought they should go to the Barrett-Byam House. And Eleanor didn't like that idea. She thought that Jane Drury was the right thing to do.

So the last of my knowledge of those notes was they disappeared. Eleanor's trunk found down cellar. And at that last time, I knew anything about it and nobody knew where they went.

I think now I know the person I spoke to was not one of Eleanor's favorite people. And somehow or other, she made sure that he didn't get them. What you have already told me this morning, that you now have them, was news to me.

As far as I know, they were lost or misplaced or destroyed. I just never knew. So I'm very happy to hear now I know.

It is no secret that Eleanor and Charlotte DeWolf were very close. And as we know, they worked on this project together. Now Charlotte's favorite charity project in Chelmsford was the Garrison House.

Eleanor was not excited about the Garrison House, but because Charlotte was, that was for some reason or other, there was a personality clash. Somehow or other, some don't know about it, that Eleanor and Charlotte had very little to do with the Barrett Vine House. You know, I'm fishing out of my bad memory the few things I do remember.

So that's how Eleanor got involved, because she was deeply involved with the Garrison House Association. She donated the blacksmith's shop that was over on Maple Road and sent it over there. I can't swear to everything I say or remember, because I may be wrong on some of it.

Well, I think I'm pretty close on most of it. I have a question. I always wondered if Charlotte DeWolf had any relation with DeWolf Real Estate in town.

No. DeWolf Real Estate is from Milton, Mass. And they bought my company, Emerson Real Estate.

All of which eventually became Coldwell Banker, which it is now. Oh. So that's where DeWolf went, to Coldwell Banker.

Yeah. My main office was 20 Chelmsford Street, which originally was the Sweetser property. Irving Sweetser owned a store, primarily meat market, next door.

Not in my time, but before that. And delivered things, horse and buggy. You've got to keep horse and delivery wagging.

That's gone back a ways. Well, I knew Mrs. Sweetser. She was kind to me, but she was kind of cantankerous.

She was living in the house that eventually became your office? Yeah. Was it the barn in the back where they kept horses and wagons for business?

The little building to the rear seemed to me to be where the stable and horse-drawn vehicles would have been kept. As a sort of carriage house. Which eventually was turned into a single family residence, up and down.

Who developed that into a residence? Mrs. Sweetser. So she was the owner, still the owner at that time?

After I owned it, I separated the upstairs and the downstairs. The upstairs remained residential and the downstairs became a little sub-office of my business. It was a cute little office.

Just a fireplace at work. Remember what year you purchased it? I'll tell you when the building was completed.

You didn't expect me to talk about the Sweetser house? Right. The information I have here is all about this flat.

Was that before this? Oh no, I owned Chelmsford Street first. That was my number one acquisition.

When did you start in the real estate business? Well, I worked for another local real estate insurance office. Which was in the Oddfellows building, first floor.

His name was Peterson. I started with him in the fifties. And I worked with him for seven years.

And then I opened my own office at 92 Chelmsford Street. Which my father owned. I bought that and some land from him.

The land of which eventually got developed into Parlmont Plaza. In fact, that street, I think it's called Alpine Lane. I had that constructed.

And at the very end of that street, I'm drifting. Then what motivated building the street from start to finish was an out of town person, New York business person, who was in the bowling alley business. With the big balls of, what do you call them?

You mean the ball where your fingers go in? He bought the land at the end of that street. So the street got built from Chelmsford Street to its termination at that time.

To get people to the bowling alley. To get to the bowling alley. And where was your office on the left side going into Parlmont?

My office then was 92 Chelmsford Street. There was a building there with tickets. Ticket sales?

Ticket sales, sports and whatever. There's a pizza place right on the corner now. Well, you say Parlmont.

Parlmont Plaza. Yeah, out of Alpine Lane. Out of Alpine Lane.

That grew, except for the bowling alley, one step at a time. The very first thing, it's still a fast food operation, pizza, but a local fellow, Emil Dumont, was a professional baker. And he, with his mother's help, opened that first building on the left, on the corner.

The left side as you head down Alpine Lane? Yeah. And it was very good.

It was known as Tasty Pastry. Emil Dumont. Was there for years.

Emil Dumont became a partner with Charlie Parlee. Emil's gone, Charlie's still around. And it was why they were brothers-in-law.

Oh, I didn't know that. His wife, Jane, was a Dumont. And there was a major falling out.

And people during the early days, Charlie knew more about construction than Emil did. Emil was the money man and the bookkeeper and all that stuff. It was sort of presumed by some, including me, that Emil was the brains of the outcome.

However, it turns out, look at them now, Charlie Parlee is one of the richest guys in town, and he's been very successful. He brags about the fact that, Charlie Parlee brags about the fact that he didn't graduate from Framers School. Wow, I guess that's true.

Now, Emil and Charlie then were partners in building the hotel. They were in the beginning. And what was the name of the hotel when it started?

Now, that one was definitely in my views. And we have changed it several times. It's a Radisson now, I think.

It is a Radisson now. I've been there a number of times because that's where, after trying every place in town, Johnson Rotary Club, has been meeting every week for recent years, for which I was a member for a number of years. You got me on that one.

I should know it. It'll come to me. I think it was like that.

One of the bigger hotel chains. It was three in the morning. It just popped right up.

So, I take it Emil gave up the bakery? Emil, when they started the hotel business, gave up the bakery. The hotel was built in two different stages.

And Emil and his then wife were the primary owners of the original half. And then... Was Charlie the builder?

No. Then, Emil got kind of friendly with Dr. Wang. And things were going good for Dr. Wang. And he persuaded, convinced Emil that he put on a major upscale addition that he could use almost all the rooms for his people he did business with, and guests and so forth. So, the second half, very nice. You've probably been there.

That's with the function hall and the grand staircase. Yeah. Yeah.

But then, Wang went under. And Emil didn't get the benefits of the Wang business that he was anticipating. Meanwhile, thought he was a rich man.

He was a collector. One was famous signatures. And another thing was, he was a bug on antique grandfather's clocks, of which he bought several.

Big money. And he lost all that stuff. And, meanwhile, all of that property, Parlmont, Alpine, the hotel, was all part of my father's farm, which began at North Road.

It's been in the paper a lot in the last few months. Especially that one little piece of land, which was the barnyard. I stayed out of that one.

I was invited by both sides. They wanted some quotes they could use in their favor. I guess so.

So, how far did the land go? It went down past Alpine Lane, included where the hotel was built, and where 495 is. How about Skips and Kitts?

How did they fit in? Originally, they were part of the farm. Originally.

The land right along Chelmsford Street, Skips and the ice cream stand all, my father sold to Jonah Kitt. Kitt's Dairy. In fact, he used to joke about it.

Every time I needed to buy a couple of cows, I'd sell them to Kitt on a little piece of land. And I think that was a true story. I drifted away from something.

The end of the farm really began with 495. It took a big chunk. And so, the years after that, my father kept it going on a much, much, much smaller scale.

And just mostly because it was his life. It's what he liked to do. But previous to that, well, also, I can't get my dates straight, but there was a huge bonfire.

Yes. Were you here then? I wasn't here then, but I have a news clipping of it.

Well, it wiped out the barns and all the cattle. And quite a mess. And where all the office condos are now, Village Square, that was all part of the farm.

That was close up. Those were the fields where the cows used to go? The cows would go there sometimes, but for a pasture during the spring, summer, fall, they'd go down the lane and cross Fletcher Street and go into another lane by the veterinarian to a larger pasture that went all the way down to Golden Cove.

Well, cows in the day, in the afternoon, walk down the lane to White Gate and call the cows. And they'd come, get in line, and they'd put trapes all the way. Did you do that as a kid, bring cows back to the barn?

Well, they knew once they got up to the barn, they knew they were going to get their grain and get milked. And they were pretty smart. They each had their own stanchion, and they'd come in loose, but one by one, and they'd go to their own stanchion.

Knew exactly where to go. On one side here and one side there, and they'd find it. If they didn't, they'd yell at them, and they'd call their name and number, and they'd, and they'd back out and go in the right way.

Did your dad, that was Ted, right? Yeah. Did he, after the barn burned, did he rebuild and continue to keep cattle?

He did rebuild, but it was a different kind of a setup, and he was, it wasn't, he probably would have been better off if he didn't rebuild, because it was, it was, Well, it was the tail end of the farming business, the dairy business, I think. Well, I guess he still had a market for milk, but he switched in a new building, he switched to what was referred to as loose housing, no stanchions, and then at milking time, they'd line up and come into what was called a milking parlor, because one by one, you got one, and then while they were in the milking parlor and being milked, they'd get their grain, and as soon as you then took out the machine, you'd open a gate on each one, and they'd go out the other side. It was pretty simple.

So if they wanted their grain, they had to go into this contained area, and they'd get their milk to fall in there. And then, instead of dumping the milk into a pail that had to be carried into the milk room and through a strainer into a 20-quart jug, it all went, it was all piped, and it was all milked out of the tank. So it was a pretty slick operation on a much smaller scale.

Now, the Greenwoods had a sewer constructing, a septic system constructing company. Did they lease some land down toward where 495 is? And I know reading about the kids, that was kind of a swampy area initially, and they filled in some of that land.

How did the Greenwoods fit in? Well... So Raymond, I think, was originally and Bobby with his son to go after.

I raised Greenwood. Raymond. He and family, known as Beano, by the way.

Beano. They all grew up in a house on Fletcher Street about the way Lowell 5 is. And Beano, before he really got his business going, which back then was, even in the early days, or even before septic tanks, Raymond, Jr. started the septic tank business.

And we're getting on the early days of when septic tanks were required. Instead of... His father built what was referred to as a dry well with stones off...

They'd pick off stone walls. You'd get a farmer's permission to do it. And I'd pick some stones off your wall.

They knew Beano, they'd let him do it. Beano got into politics early and did a lot of people a lot of favors. So he was a pretty popular guy, politically speaking, and a nice guy.

So where was their operation relative to...

Right there. Right there at the house.

Oh, right at their house? Fletcher Street. On Fletcher Street.

Yeah. But as you said, that was... That was sort of right across from Meeting House Lane?

Meeting House Lane. He said the bank. Meeting House Lane was Charlotte College Street.

And... Meeting House and Greenwood House were on the same side of the street. Oh, same side, okay.

Yeah. Was that house still there? Or was it...

Did what? The Greenwoods house still there? No.

No, there were three houses there. The Greenwood house, which was an older kind of campy house. And then there was a new two-story house a guy named Phillips built for himself.

And another house, new house, somebody named... His friend's name. And then there was an old house which...

I guess that's the wrong story. And then the lane, the other side of the lane that went down and back up. But the Greenwood property, as you mentioned earlier, was pretty swampy.

Because of the business they were in, when the trucks would come home at night after putting in some of these sources, they'd have a load of fill on the truck. So, drive it in, dump it in, and their land grew and grew and grew. Of course, it wouldn't be allowed nowadays.

The Conservation Commission would have something to say today.

Oh, no, no. My father and Beano, who had been very good friends, and Beano worked for my father for a while, they became kind of political rivals. They were kind of nasty at times.

But there was a time there was a three-man board of selection. And Beano had something on his mind that was going to come up at a meeting tonight or tomorrow night. He'd come in, and Beano, while my father was making calls, he'd say, Hey, Ted.

Nice meeting. Somebody's going to come in, and they're going to ask for something or other. I don't think we should give it to them.

For whatever reason. It could have been political payback, or it could have been rational. And they'd talk it over, and sometimes they would agree, and sometimes they wouldn't.

But the third member of the board was Mr. Peterson. Oh, yes. He was never, he was saying, I'll decide it before the meeting.

Two to one. Well, unless it was a one-to-one. Or if one was absent.

Or if it was a three-man board. If Beano could convince your dad, then that was a majority. That's right.

So they could, that's right. You could have it any way you wanted. Yes.

That's the way it was done back then. We talk about a conflict of interest now. Oh, yes.

It's a tribe thing now. That's the way it is. That's the normal way you do business.

Now, moving forward in time, you got interested in running for selectmen at some point. I was on the planning board for three five-year terms. Fifteen years.

Was your dad a selectman at that time? No. No, he was done with politics by then, when I was in.

And then I decided to take a shot at selectmen, and I was a selectman for three terms. When, middle of my third year, I had a bad stroke. And I resigned.

But three years later, I was up and about and feeling good. I ran again. And I won again.

So, So the terms weren't consecutive, there was a gap? No, in that case, they would have been, except there was that space of time where I had resigned. And then I ran for the third term, over again

. In fact, I ran, I'm pretty sure I ran unopposed for that third term, which was a nice way to run. What were some of your favorite issues that came up during that time? Well, it was the beginning of serious talk about the need for sewerage.

There was a major issue about the route to be used or taken to get from Route 3 north over with a new bridge over the Merrimack. I can remember that. I remember they were talking about BruouiletteStreet and Weide Street.

One of the options, and the other one was the street that is there now and Wood Street. Wood Street, yes. And it was a major issue.

That was a temporary bridge, I recall, built in 1983 and named after one of the city councilors. Brulette? Brulette.

Raymond Rourke. And my major opponent was for BruouiletteStreet and I was for Wood Street. And I think that was the right decision, but I think the public thought so too.

So I think I picked up some support on that. Now was that to locate the temporary bridge or was that for the permanent bridge that was supposed to follow in just a few years? The bridge is still there, isn't it?

It's not so temporary. But when you were referring to the decision of Wood and Brulette, was that for the placement of the temporary bridge?

Yeah.

Okay, so that was the initial bridge going across. Yeah. Because then later there was discussion about building a big interchange with Route 3 and they talked about going down where Route 4 goes and then connecting through one of the cross streets.

And then then the issue of location and what became the city's dump would have been had a lot to do with going through it or getting around it. Previous to that, our little town dump was a street off Dalton Road to a dead end. I can't say the name, it doesn't matter.

It was almost down at Stedman Street, parallel to Stedman. That was our town dump. And then the town dump became Swain Road in North Chelsea.

That eventually cut. Now here's a question. Swain Road was closed for a while.

Then they were going to convert it to a sanitary landfill. And just when they were going to open it, they decided not to. And I think there was a regional incinerator project that came along just in time.

I was involved while I was on the board. There was a major controversy as to whether we would continue to with the trash disposal. One of the issues was a transfer station.

And the other was I guess to continue shipping it out of town. Which I guess we still do. Don't we?

I remember now that there was a study committee. I remember we'd really hang them over one for a Saturday study. I was very much opposed to the transfer station.

And another selectman, Roger Blondin, was very much in favor of it. And the rest of the board was hadn't quite decided. But it kept up to be the hot issue.

I went out of town to visit a couple of transfer stations. One was in Hatton, I think. I was not particularly impressed with it.

Where would that have been located in Chelmsford if it had gone through? That was part of the problem. That was one of the big parts.

Not in my backyard. And nobody wanted it in the backyard of Town Hall. So we're talking about that?

At one point you mean in the back of Town Office? Yeah. Which, by the way, was I went to high school where the office is now.

Directly out in back of that auditorium was the football field. And where the Little Lake Park is was an abandoned sand bank for years. In fact, the town used it as their place to dump snow that they would pick up around the center of town here.

And by springtime there'd be snow all the way out to the street. So did the town all that land at that time? They must have. Across a little further down Chelmsford Street near Dunkin' Donuts is a street to the right called Emerson Avenue. Tell me about that. Well, it's in narrow ways and you go over the railroad tracks and there was a sand bank in there that my grandfather owned.

How he acquired it or when, I don't know. I guess Roger Boyd ended up owning that because coming in now off Golden Cove Road that would be on the other side of it is Boyd Lane. New houses and all which has to have been on that property that was my grandfather's.

Okay? So Roger Boyd owned it? Did he live there?

Or did he store vehicles? He did not, no. No, he lived he had a house on Chelmsford Street south on the fringe of the Chelmsfordgoing down on the left a nice booth and a bungalow style house.

And then he built a house on HornbeamHill Road it was a slab house one of the first I ever heard of in the in the floor and even in the driveway it turns out the one in the driveway was too expensive to operate but friends of mine live there now and pretty nice house inside and then he bought he bought a nice house on Bot Street kind of a nice colonial going up the hill red house on the left where he bought it from a man named Spur who he and his brother owned a company in Lawrence called Agawam Die Works and anyway Roger lived there for some years and now a in that village square ophthalmologist bought it who just recently sold it side by side there was a Dr. Lalahead which was Mass Opticians I think and then they had a split and they opened right next door still there they both sold it let's let's go back to Emerson Lane for just a minute there was a brick like an apartment business building on the left side who built that Warren Lahuewho was the same man that the bank in the center First Bank and Trust started as Chelmsford Bank and Trust anyway Mr. Leo he owned the ophthalmologist building and he started that bank with a few local business people and it grew and it grew and most of those business people got started in the banking business in that bank which eventually was owned by Mr. Redstone Sunder?

Sunder's brother ok and very wealthy guys both of them what I started to thought is those the younger generation that worked there are still very much involved in the banking business particularly enterprise yes Mr. Duncan George DuncanDick Main and a whole list of guys that I used to do business with here in the center and I still do business with them with enterprise if I can you know they're they don't hang around they're in Lowell now the main offices you know I don't see those people so tell me a little bit about Warren and Ladew he had a company called Debo Ladew Debo Ladew what he had a patent named Debo and they had there was a slogan that said don't doze bulldoze Ladew and Debo was his patent and they developed new houses among other things apartment houses in fact the brick house the brick apartment house at the corner of Edison Lane Mr. Ladew built was that after 495?

did he build it because of it's convenience to 495 or was that there before? I I think it was there before I think so he was he was lucky and they didn't take it for the apartment yeah they kind of went around it that building has been very successful and always to my knowledge fully occupied and to my knowledge again of new construction of that era that was the first new apartment building in town that I know of and then that kind of development a lot of it went to North Chelmsford Kingsborough Road do you recall any other projects that Ladew and Debo did?

I know one in West Chelmsford it's on at the intersection of school and Main Street it had been a post office at one time and I know that they had purchased that and developed it into Stony Brook apartments and I think it was 1940 they bought the Odd Fellows Hall and turned that into colonial apartments and the one in West Chelmsford at the corner of school and Main I do remember that building it was fairly close to the street and then there was one right across the street on the other corner and he owned both farms and in fact they went to school and lived in one of those buildings How about North Chelmsford did he commercial buildings?

Charlie Parlee Charlie did yes bought a whole string of dilapidated historic buildings on one end and a garage on the other end I think and he did a nice job compared to what it was it was a mess all the buildings were disconnected the architecture was crazy and he made a you know decent looking property and rented them.

Charlie's a smart guy He did some amazing farmhouse restorations along the way and he just acquired another one I'm not sure if you know about that Sally Fields house on Maple Road next to Red Wing Farm he purchased that a few weeks ago he's going to restore that as a nice farm and a real historic home.

How long the practice was related to this somehow?

She was she was very close friends with Sally Field and actually it was on Sally's property or right next door to Sally's property where the blacksmith buying blacksmith shop was.

It was just off the end of her barn so they were next door neighbors as well as close friends.

They own a big open field right across the street I've seen a picture of that field with cows in it in our archives.

But anyway at some point a little group I had together did business with together bought half of that field and built a light industrial type building and we at that time one of our partners who was in that kind of world was certain that NASA was going to locate in Boston or in this area and there would be a demand for small industrial spaces and we built it with that in mind.

And we didn't get one of those NASA people called NASA didn't come here but we did run them fairly fast.

What were your first tenants?

The first tenant was wool bureau which was I don't know exactly what they did but people who were in the wool business raised sheep for wool where members of this organization wool bureau and they took the whole front half of the building.

I don't ask them what they did I never saw a sheep there and the guy who was sort of the head of the operation.

I can't say his name lived on next guy.

Do you remember who was in the back do you remember who rented the back?

It was a stamp and die who he worked for you know where he got his business I don't know his name was Andy.

Funny guy wore cowboy hats boots talked funny but he paid his rent.

Who was your partner in the in that field when you bought the field and did that development?

Well we had a group of five who were the players there Ralph House, Fred Field, Elmo Burns, Arnold Parlee, and me a wonderful group.

I take it Arnold was a brother to Charlie and Henry?

Not brother, cousin, lived on Concord Road and Mr. Field was he related to Sally Field?

No he and his brother owned Field Machine Day which had been Lowell very successful company family and I'm going to scratch your memory Max what year did you purchase that field?

I'd be guessing I'd be in the 60s 64 I don't know the Agway the Eastern States Farmers Exchange building was built in 64 and I think they tore down the train station across tracks at the same time 64.

So let's put things in perspective you and your partners bought it first and built at the brick building with two spaces leased out when did see what the Loral which eventually became Lockheed Martin that's Lockheed Martin is the company that's in that building right now.

Do you recall when that group that used to be called Loral took over?

Is that after your company was there and it might have been wool bureau?

I'm not sure. There was a major major major problem with pollution of chemicals and because of what they did because of that and it affected the town and the school across the street yeah because there was underground seepage.

I don't know the word for it but migration that was that was a big problem.

So how did you and your partners exit from this problem or how did they handle it?

Well the problem I just mentioned didn't anything we got involved in. It was a tenant who was the culprit and I suppose we could have been dragged into it but I don't think we were.

Did it become a super fund site or did they have to pick up the expense themselves cleaning it up?

I think they had to clean it up we didn't get hurt on that but it was just something that they were discharging into what was presumed to be a septic system. They had to shut it down and build something new so they just put it down there draining it into a septic field distributed it through throughout yeah.

So did you and the partner sell the building?

Eventually we did.

Well, we can do this again if you'd like to. I'm expecting... Oh, it's only 10 after 10.

Yeah. We watched and I thought it was noon time. I've got plenty of time.

Usually two hours is a good time to wrap it up. So if you want to go to 11? Sure.

Okay. I enjoy this stuff. I know.

It's easy to talk to and bring back memories or strike a nerve or something I should remember. Well, since we're sitting here in Central House, tell me about Vasiliki Vlahos and her daughter Hope. Vasiliki Vlahos owned it before your time and her daughter Hope was the owner for Vlahos Realty Trust.

Hope inherited it from her mother. And her mother was Vasiliki. Yeah.

If I'm pronouncing it right, I'm not sure. Well, you're doing as well as I am. And what about that family?

How did they come by it? I have no idea. No idea?

What I do know is that Mrs. Vlahos' husband ran a successful wholesale fruit business. And I presume he was through that source of revenue that got her involved in this place. So she probably bought it as an income generating property?

Yeah.

Had a manager? Was she hands-on or did she hire people to operate it? She didn't know.

Did she? Once in a while, she was an awful whiner. But at that time, I was working for Mr. Peterson. And she came in and said, Sam, Sam, I have a little problem with this table. Do you think you could rent it? I said, well, we'll try if you want.

Well, how much would you charge? And she said, oh, I can't pay that. Oh, she was tough.

And just whining, whining, whining. So this is the mother that you're talking about? Yeah.

And then her daughter inherited it and then she sold it. She didn't rent it for very long. She was from Hope.

Ran it for a while. She wasn't on site like her mother was. She probably collected the rents and found out the other work.

I'm not sure. Yeah, so. So you were very familiar with the building and working across the street for a period of time.

Yeah. Well, not only that, but I walked by it three or four times a day when I went to grammar school on 11 North Road down here across Chelmsford Street, Bill Riker Road, in the morning, home for lunch, back to school, home after school, five days a week for eight years. And at that point in time, I was never in the building.

I knew it as the Blouse Building, and then no history or anything. So were you in the real estate business at the time you purchased it? Yes.

Did you have your own business at that time? In fact, my own business and one of my brokers listed it and told me about it and said, Brent, by any chance are you interested? I said, I haven't thought about it, but yeah, I guess I have a little interest.

So we talked about it and discussed what she was asking and what the income was and all the rest to go through, and I bought it. I didn't have enough money to buy it. I had to rewrite the mortgage on 20 Chelmsford Street to get the financing I needed.

But that worked out okay. There was a term that was used then that I had never heard of, and it was if you expect to grow financially, it was leverage your equity. Sitting there, not making any money for you, so borrow some more money on that first one and buy the second.

It made sense. So when you bought the 20 Chelmsford from Mrs. Sweetser, you had some equity built up on that? Yes.

I still have a good relationship with banks around the area, not as many banks as I used to do most of my business in Lowell. In fact, I was a director of what used to be Central Savings Fund for a while until then. Did that have anything to do with Central locating at the corner of Fletcher and North, the fact that you were a director?

I'll tell you exactly how that came about. I was involved as a broker, not as the bank's decisions. The head of the biggest bank in Lowell back then was Union National Bank, and the president, Homer Bourgeois, was friendly with Dr. Roger Koch. And Dr. and Homer Bourgeois said to Roger, I wanted to buy that corner, and my directors didn't think it was a good idea. He said, I still think it's a great idea. While I can't do it, somebody will.

Great corner. And he said to Roger, if he, by the way, if he had a chance, had the opportunity to buy it, it would be a great investment. So Roger took that advice from the people on that site where the Eastern Bank is now.

There were two small houses, twin houses, in the back right, full of Leavenworth Road and that showroom. So I knew the people and bought those houses. And Roger bought them one at a time.

One had nothing to do with the other. As they went up for sale?

Yeah.

And so with that, I mentioned that to the powers that be at Central Savings that this corner is, Roger Curry now owns, and he might be able to do business with him. So he did business, but the business was, Roger Curry built the bank building and leased it to Central Savings Bank for big money at that time. But that's how that developed.

With the twin houses, were they built by your grandfather? No. But somehow there was a lady who was friendly with, almost to the point of seeing like she was family, that my great-grandfather, James P., gave her those two lots. And she had the two houses built for rental purposes. They were cute little houses, two story. And were they on the North Road line or were they lined up with Fletcher?

North Road. Now, here's another mystery. I believe there were twin houses also on Fletcher Street.

There were. And was there any relation to the two twin houses on North Street? Not that I know of, except that, now the two on Fletcher Street, they were owned by great-grandfather James P.

And when my father acquired the farm, the houses came with it. There were a couple of other houses on Fletcher Street also. That side of the street was all part of the farm.

The other two houses you mentioned, one of them was Charles Proctor House that came from Central Square. And I want to talk about that in a minute. It got moved.

Right. And then the one next door, my understanding was it was the parsonage from the mission on Fletcher and North. When they wanted to build the brick church, they wanted to get rid of that.

And that got moved across the street so they could build a church. So... You're talking about the new Catholic Church?

Yeah, the new Catholic Church, St. Mary's. When they built St. Mary's, there was a parsonage that went with the mission that was there before. And that was the other house.

So we're talking about four houses with two twin houses on Fletcher. That would be... No, no, no.

That story I know. What's the story? It moved from North Road.

It was Catholic Church property. They knew they needed the land to build a new church. And so they had to get rid of the house.

And they tried to sell it. There was no interest in it. And they sold it to my father for one dollar, provided he would move it.

He had the land on Fletcher Street. He knew a man who had used on other stuff, heavy stuff, who knew how to do it. It was a L-shaped house.

They cut it in half, got a professional mover to move the two halves around the corner down Fletcher Street, put it on a foundation on the right-hand side. And my father converted it into five apartments. And they were nice apartments.

But for some reason or other, somebody else wanted to buy the land. And with that, the building got just torn down. That's number one village square.

Okay, so it's all village square. Yeah. I was involved with some other guys in building one village square.

In fact, my own personal office was on the second floor of that building. I suspect the same office, I think, probably Mr. Van Loo. Oh, really?

I suspect that's how his office is. He's in my chair. That's ironic.

So how did the village square project come about? Now, that was... Oh, but this is the chair?

That was... This is your office. That was my executive office, yes.

Oh, it says Emerson Square on the sign. Yeah. Where is that from?

It originated at Emerson Square, which is the corner of North Road and Dalton Road. But exactly how it got into my possession, I'm not sure. I sort of think my brother had it when he moved out of town.

I think he gave it to me. How he got it, I don't know. It could have been...

It could have been swiped on a Halloween prank. I don't know. It seems like on the old maps were there three Emersons on three of the four corners that owned land at that intersection?

Is that why it was called Emerson? I know there was one family that owned about three out of the four corners. What I remember about why I think it became Emerson Square was in the early days where there were two...

You head up now. We're talking a little going towards Western. There's two stone houses on the right.

Dr... Somebody named... Lawyer...

Lawyer... Lala owned one of them. And the other one was a doctor and the one on the corner.

So it's one of the... I believe, according to my grandmother, there was a homestead there that was the original Emerson homestead that burned in 1906. And if that's true, it probably...

There were probably two houses on that small street. That one and then the one at number 30 became a parent house until it became... An Emerson house.

You bought it. I bought it. Okay, just as an aside, the Historic Society has some terrific pictures of the Emerson home that burned in 1906 from back around the 1890s.

I think there's two or three pictures of that farm in the collection. Well, it was an interesting house. We loved the house.

I always wanted an antique colonial house. I was going back to the one that burned already in 1906. We have some pictures of that.

Now, you're talking about another one that was owned by a firm. One of the firm houses, as you go further down the street, you get up toward the firm farm. Right.

And that property that was taken by 495? That would be the cider mill. The cider mill, right.

So this is a house that was on Dalton Road that was another family member. It got moved. Oh.

From... From... Western Street across the field to Dalton Road next door to the antique house that I had.

That was number 20, you said? The antique house? And the fellow who moved it, or the owner, was...

His name was Tom Thorstenson, who was some kind of a laboratory chemist. I don't know exactly what he did. He did water testing, water quality.

He was my next door neighbor for a while. Well, we started with the name of Emerson Square.

Right.

Well, okay.

I think...

I think that has to be because of the Emerson Homestead. Okay. Yeah.

You mentioned that's where the original Emerson farm was that burned in 1906. Where the stone houses are. Oh, that's the site where the stone houses are.

I think so. I gotcha. Yeah.

Okay. And people are... More to the story of those stone houses than a local lumber dealer by the name of Russell.

Russell Lumber. Russell Lumber had a brother, Bob Russell, I think, built those two houses on spec and had a hard time selling for $6,000. Oh, $6,000.

Yeah. Well, this could have been a lot of money back then. Yeah.

My grandfather, Ralph. That's... In fact, that's where we're headed next because that other house that was on Fletcher Street that got demolished when you built the village...

Village Square. Square phase one or village... What was it?

Village... Square one, you called it? I don't remember that there was one or two although number one was the first building.

Right. And then the rest of it just grew and grew. The other house was moved for Ralph by his dad.

It was moved in 1915 to Fletcher Street. And Ralph had been a postmaster next door just a few houses down the street. Right.

And then when they moved the house out Ralph built the brick building which is still there and it's the Chelmsford Card and Gift. And he started a... First it was an auto parts place and then it was a car dealership.

A Ford dealership. Should I start? Go ahead.

I was flying home from somewhere and the stewardess came along and she was being chatty and friendly. Where are you from? Chelmsford.

Oh. She said my grandfather owned the first automobile agency in Chelmsford. And I said really?

Is your last name Carroll? And she said yeah, how do you know that? She said your grandfather Mr. Carroll bought the Ford agency from my grandfather. She said no. Yes. She said well I've been told all my life by my family that my grandfather owned the first automobile agency in Chelmsford.

That's funny. Well that's close. Carroll Ford I vaguely remember it myself.

And then well the Roger Wojt story you know about him and this building. Now after Carroll was it Sterling? Motors.

Sterling Motors? Do you recall that? Doesn't ring a bell.

Now soon after that during World War II believe it or not it was used as a pickle factory. Ray Barrows? Ray Barrows was involved but more so he had the trading post which is over here where the rhino is.

1950.

And somehow Ray Osborne who had crossed the stream in the Stuttgart agency wished I'd bought one. 1951. Still have it?

My first new car. Nice little car. At some point in time after World War II a guy by the name of Fred Whittington where the card shop is now he had kind of a five and dime store.

Was he was that the Goldens? He little by little by little he bought the whole strip. And that is from not the diner which is still there but from that point on down Cushing Place.

To Cushing Place. And they weren't the buildings weren't lined up evenly. So he he moved them he lined them up evenly.

And that alley was there to get to the back of the automobile agency. He filled that in with another building. You can see if you look at it carefully.

Do you remember what was in that alley after it was enclosed? What business was in there? I think it was a little hardware store.

A a national name not big but I can't say it. A guy by the name of Kellogg ran the store and it was missing. Where did I go off on the thread with it?

Well you were talking about how he he aligned the fronts of those buildings. I'm not sure he moved the buildings. He may have just built a front across.

You think he actually moved the building? At least one of them. Okay.

In that line of stores there used to be the first national store. That was the old post office where your uncle Ralph was postmaster. My grandfather.

Ralph W. was your grandfather? Yeah.

Sorry. Okay. See that little chest right there?

Yeah. That was his in the post office. That's really neat.

v You probably know back then every time the national political scene changed from party to party postmasters changed to a new party to choose all of them. In my lifetime as a kid I can name three or four different postmasters or mistresses. And then at that time the post office was around the corner on Johnson Street where there's a little restaurant in there now before you get to Tony and Johnson Street.

It's a Chinese restaurant. Fresh Chow I think. Right.

In that building. That's the Sweetser building. On the side and was the post office.

That small house is insurance or something right now? Muldoon. Muldoon.

Yeah. Well the Sweetser building itself was a post office too back in 27. The left side of that building was the post office.

Right. That's what I thought we were talking about. Again on the way to and from school after school probably Box 24 and Box 26 with my parents and my grandparents across the street.

Simple little combination. They could open one now. So that was part of the walk home.

Had to include a stop at the post to get the mail. Back then streets were not numbered. Nothing was numbered.

And when it became time to do that the postmaster and chairman of the board of successors walked around town and started right over there with number one with the rhino with number two and so on three four five six seven. So that's how the central square got screwed up numbering. The postmaster just went in sequence.

He didn't go across the street. I wonder if I was going to ask you about that. Well, I think when they got to a street they went on even because I grew up at 11 North Road and the house my grandparents built across the street where the lawyers are now is number 10 and the North Road door, front entrance is number six.

The Academy Street entrance is number one on Academy and speaking of Academy I'm sure you know more than I would know that at the top of the hill on the right was the Academy. Some kind of school. Is that Academy Street On Academy Street you know there's a hill at the top of the hill next to the Baptist Church probably very close to where the Baptist Church is.

There was a very I've seen pictures of it, a Victorian building which was at the classical school for a short time. It went out of business during the Civil War right at the beginning of the Civil War. Actually I have good pictures from the late 1800s but I found these pictures when they demolished it in the 50s to build the Baptist Parchment that's there today.

And you probably know that the house that I was talking about was one of the that was I didn't know your great grandfather built that. Oh no. He didn't.

He didn't. It's older than that, right? It's a Deacon Otis Adams house.

No, they built number 10. Oh, that's next door to the Adams house. But they bought it as an investment and it was used as a two-family which when they sold number 10 North Road they moved into the North Road side of the two-family.

A gentleman that they went to all through school in town with rented the other side of a couple. Their last name was Fulton. They were close friends and the doors between the two houses were closed they had go back forth the two houses and they had to go back forth between the two houses and to go and they had to back between the two houses and they had to go back forth between the two houses they to back forth houses back forth between and they had to go back forth between the two houses and they had to back between the two houses and they to go back and they had to go back forth between the two houses they had to go back forth between the two houses and they had to houses and they had to back forth between the two houses and they go to and they had go back the two houses and they had to back between and they had to go back forth between the two houses and they had back between the houses and between the two houses and they had back the houses and they had to go back and they had back the two houses and they had houses and it went down Billerica Road down to Perham Street.

On Plum Street. Plum? Or Perham?

Perham. Wait a minute. Plum was around the corner.

Yeah. Down Billerica Road. Right on Perham.

It's on the right-hand side. Of Perham Street.

Yeah. Still there.

Still there. Yeah. And in fact, my father was born in that building.

You're kidding. That... That... Yeah. And coincidentally, what used to be a bakery now is a clothes shop on the other side of Cushing Place. Yes.

And the Ruby Emery's bakery. Being ??, we were born in that building. That's funny.

So I'm told. So did... Was that building in your family when it got...

when the top half got moved down to Perham Street? I'm going to guess no. I think they were just rented.

Rented out. Okay. Yeah.

In both cases. It was just... Again, they were both all parties concerned.

Young. Probably their first... results of their first marriage.

I'm about ready to call it quits for today. I'm getting tired. That's good timing.

Just two hours. Okay. So that's the way it usually works, you know.

That's just about the right amount of time. So Brad, I really appreciate you sitting down. Well, I have enjoyed it.

And it brings back memories of things I had not thought about for years. And I have a habit of something I can't think of, a name or an issue or something that around 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning... Comes right back to you.

I think we all do that. Not even thinking about it. All of a sudden, boom.

That's what I was trying to think of three, four hours ago. Okay. We'll wrap it up here.